Marie Quigley: Hello and welcome, wherever you are in the world. Marie Quigley here, along with Jeanine Bailey, for another podcast episode at Empower World. Good afternoon, Jeanine!

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, good afternoon, Marie. I almost wanted to suggest that when we met last week in person, that we record a podcast, or maybe even do a live podcast, but that quickly went out the window as we caught up together on all sorts of things that are happening in our lives, so it was great to catch up.

Marie Quigley: Love it, yeah, lovely meeting.

Jeanine Bailey: Great to see you here, and the weather seems to have turned a little bit, as you can potentially tell by my words now.

Marie Quigley: It's warm today, but it's a bit damp, so, yeah.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes.

Marie Quigley: Today, we met a little bit earlier to have a think through what might be useful for our listeners to think about, and you brought up an interesting topic that came up with your supervision groups and mentoring groups earlier, Jeanine. So I'm going to hand over to you to explore and share what we're thinking about talking about today.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, and this topic generally comes up in training and mentoring, as well as supervision. But it's something that has been coming up quite a bit recently in the training that I've been a part of the last couple of weeks in relation to the work that I do with the university in Australia and our own work, Empower World's work. And it's the concept of what we call bottom - lining, or pausing people - pausing the people that we're working with as coaches to support them to really go underneath the story that they bring in. We know that this is a really powerful way of managing a conversation, managing the time, and really supporting the people we work with to go underneath the story, but it's often a difficult concept or action for coaches to take on. So we thought we'd bring this to the podcast to share the purpose of it, and how we can do this in a really empowering way in service of the people that we work with.

Marie Quigley: Absolutely, and if we're thinking about the ICF core competencies, this relates to Competency 6.6, inviting an interruption in service of the client - not in service of the coach, but in service of the client's deepening awareness. And what a fascinating topic to explore. So, if a new coach is coming asking, what do you mean by bottom - lining? How do I do it? When do I do it? What's your thinking around that?

Jeanine Bailey: The way that we support the coaches that we train and mentor is to really recognize that, as coaches, we're supporting our clients to slow down the conversation and to expand their thinking beyond where they've thought before. We know that our coaching partners aren't expanding their thinking when they are in the details, and they're talking quickly, and there's no hesitation, there's no pause, there's no reflection. It sounds very heady. It doesn't sound like there's some insights coming in to their reflection. So when we recognize and realize that our partners are in, perhaps, their heads - and I remember the term that you used, Marie, in our coach training, circling - going round in loops, repeating information. That's when we want to bring in bottom - lining or pausing, to have that permission to be able to interrupt the story, to find out what's going on underneath. And of course, asking, what's the crux of it all that you're sharing? Or, can I pause you there? And then follow that up with a question which might sound like, what's really going on underneath this story? Or, what's the purpose of the story that you bring in today? Something like that.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, and I notice when you're inviting that, as you're explaining it now to the listeners, how gentle you are, how your voice is calm. You're not showing your frustration or upset with a client because they're talking, perhaps, about the same thing over and over again. But there's a gentleness, a compassion, a care in the way you offer the invitation to slow down a little bit, or the invitation to notice the pattern of repeating itself.

Jeanine Bailey: And thank you, Marie. Yes, it's recognizing that the story has come in for a purpose. But it's not the story that we as coaches want to support our clients to create expanded awareness about. It's what are the underlying beliefs, patterns, habits, emotions, etc. We really want to support our clients to understand what really is going on underneath this. The story will be a symptom of the coaching partner's beliefs, their values, the experiences that may be wonderful but may actually be taking away from how they want to show up every day. And of course, we will hear - when we share this information, we will hear the pushback from the students, the coaches that we're working with: "Oh, but I don't want to be rude, I don't want to interrupt, I want to give them that space to be able to share what's important to them." And so it's really important that we contract that. So, Marie, how would you describe that with our listeners?

Marie Quigley: Yeah, well, you just took the exact words as you were talking. I was thinking, okay, we need to talk about contracting with this, because in order to interrupt, or to invite bottom - lining, the client might be a bit surprised if you do it without permission. So, when you're working with somebody, at the beginning, in the middle of your coaching engagement, throughout, in the middle of your session, there may be some contracting that sounds like: "So, to support you in your learning, it might be useful for me sometimes, if I notice you're telling the same thing over again, or saying the same story, that I might invite you to slow down, and it might sound something like this. Can I interrupt you? Or, I notice that you're repeating yourself - would it be useful to take a pause here?" So you're inviting the client to start to become aware of themselves. You might notice, as the coach - you've got to also think about, are you noticing it as a pattern, or are you noticing it because the client isn't going where you want? We don't want to be interrupting to stop the client's thinking. We want to be interrupting to deepen the client's thinking. And I think that's important.

So we need to, in many ways, teach the client what this way of interrupting, bottom - lining, coming back to the essence of what they want to say - we need to teach them how we might, as an individual coach, do that. And your contracting around it may sound very different to mine, Jeanine. I think we're not trying to make mini Marie or Jeanine coaches, but we want you to find your way, coach, to invite this interruption in a way that is natural to you, and in service of the client.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, you've raised some really good points there, Marie. It is important to bring this way of working in from the very beginning, because it will serve you and serve the partner that you're working with. And so, we've shared in the past that when we do our ways of working, there potentially can be a little bit of teaching involved, so that the partner is very aware that when we do bottom - line or pause or interrupt, that it is done with purpose. And it's not that we're not interested in what they have to share - in fact, we might be very interested - but that doesn't mean that that's going to serve the client. We, as coaches, do what we believe is going to serve the client, to support them to expand and/or deepen their thinking around the stories that they bring in. So if we can teach them that this is actually in support of really enabling them to go where they want to go with their goals or their aspirations, then the client will understand that when you do interrupt, when you do pause, that it's not going to come as a surprise, and then they're going to know that we're doing it because we want to serve them as to where they want to go with the coaching session. So it's really important to bring that up straight away in the contracting, because again, many coaches will feel, oh, it's rude to do that, but actually you are doing it in service of them.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I love that. And the ICF's thoughts on interrupting are: you allow your client, the person you're working with, to complete a sentence without interrupting. However, the exception is if there is a stated coaching purpose to interrupt - for example, stopping a destructive loop, or a loop that keeps coming around and round again, managing the session time as you've agreed, or offering a real - time pattern interrupt to serve the client's growth. Then it's okay to interrupt. It's never okay to interrupt out of your own impatience, or your own eagerness to give advice, or perhaps your discomfort with silence, or moving the person you're working with to your agenda. So there's a big distinction here. The interrupt is not in service of getting anywhere; it's in service of, as you've described, deepening the awareness.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, absolutely. I really agree with that, and I wanted to also come back to what you shared in relation to the patterns that we might notice, and potentially what we might start to intuit - that the partner that we're working with, perhaps their way to avoid going deep, to expand their awareness, is talking in details and sharing stories. So it is a wonderful way to help them to recognize that that could be a pattern. When we interrupt, maybe we check in, or reflect back what we're noticing, and ask, is that a pattern? And allow them to respond accordingly, of course. And take it from there.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I'm also thinking about - I've got a couple of clients who really like to talk things out at the beginning before they determine what the focus of the session is. They might need to blurt or share what's happening, and we agree that in our contracting, there will be time for them to say whatever it is they want before we go into looking at the session. And I'm not going to interrupt the client in that time. They're going to have that space to do that because we've agreed that. I have another client who, actually, our agreement is I don't say anything until they've finished speaking, and then they invite me to share a reflection, or share something that I might have heard or noticed. And so that's something we've agreed. So in those times, I would absolutely not be inserting even to show awareness, because we've agreed it. So it's looking at what is important for your client in how they think.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, great examples, Marie, and it all comes back to that initial contracting from the start, setting the expectations, and learning from the person that you're working with what it is that they need. So potentially, we will hear from a client like the one that you've just mentioned, that they need to blurt at the beginning of the session to be able to come in and be ready to receive coaching support. So that's really important. One of the things that I share with coaches, particularly newly trained coaches - they still have a bit of, "Oh, it could be rude" - but I share that whenever I contract this way of working, which I do with every client that I work with, apart from those that potentially, like your examples, might ask for something different, then of course contract for something different. Clients will generally - in fact, I don't know anybody who's pushed back and said, "Oh no, you can't interrupt me." Many will say, "Yes, I can go off on tangents, so yes, I actually need that kind of support to help center me, focus me, in relation to what it is that I want to work on."

Marie Quigley: Yes, so true. And as a mentor coach, when I'm listening to coaches interrupt without contracting for it, you can see how frustrating it is for the client that they're doing this, because nobody's explained to them why they're interrupting. So we can't do this thing called interrupting if we haven't agreed with the client about it, because it does feel rude, it does feel intrusive. So we've got to look at ourselves, our own patterns as coaches. If we think it's rude, okay, what could be a different perspective of that? What does it stop us challenging? What does it stop us getting curious about? How do we need to improve our contracting conversations to ensure that we are being as walking on the edge with our client as much as they want to, in terms of challenge or provocation, or whatever it is that they might need?

Jeanine Bailey: And again, another great point. I believe that when we interrupt, we don't want to come over the top and start asking a question when our client is in flow of what they're sharing. I do believe that with the contract of interrupting, it potentially sounds like, "May I stop you there?" And that's asking for permission. That's partnering with the client, and that gives the client the ability to say, "Yes, you can," or "I just need to finish this." And let the client decide how the conversation flows. So yes, the interruption isn't speaking over the top of, which, again, we can hear in coaching recordings or in sessions that we're observing. So it is doing it in a way that respects the person that we're working with.

Marie Quigley: Absolutely. So trust, respect, deepening awareness - these are all of the reasons you want to have conversations about how you might use this skill to be of service of the people you're working with.

Jeanine Bailey: And really partner with them. Really partner with them, let them know that they are in charge, to decide what to share and not to share.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, a little bit. Any other things to add before we close off today, Jeanine?

Jeanine Bailey: Nothing else to add, Marie, except just to invite coaches who haven't used bottom - lining, or pausing, or interrupting, to experiment. Experiment, and see how it lands. But it's certainly been - it changed my coaching approach when I learned how to do that skill in the ways that we've been talking about, because otherwise my coaching clients could talk forever. So it is a powerful skill to incorporate into your practice. Thank you, Marie.

Marie Quigley: Thank you. Thank you for that, Jeanine. And listeners, if you've liked what you've heard, please share widely. We'd love as many coaches to listen in and gain some tips and processes and tools in their work. We'd also love to hear from you if you'd like to listen to us talk about any specific topic, or deepen your own awareness about things in your work, in your practice, in your supervision, in your mentoring, and of course, in your coaching. Thank you for listening, until next time.

Jeanine Bailey: Thank you, Marie.