Marie Quigley: Hello, and welcome to Empower World, the Coaching and Leadership Podcast. Marie Quigley here, along with lovely Jeanine Bailey. Great to see you, Jeanine. We've had a little catch-up before we pressed record. And it's the end of a long day for both of us, and we're both noticing that energy, and finding that energy to have a conversation, but it always gives us joy to come together and explore things. And I'm gonna hand over to you, because you've brought a lovely topic that we could explore today.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, thank you, Marie, and yes, lovely to see you and be here with you, and as you said, yes, the energy potentially is starting to flag at the end of the day, but I actually am feeling much more energized by just being here in this room, about to have this conversation, so thank you. And yes, what we thought we'd bring in today-we've always got a little list of topics, usually, and today what we settled on was when we as coaches are partnering with our coaching partners, our clients, and potentially we might discover that something is coming into the conversation. Potentially, we know that it's the top of the iceberg, there's more underneath, and we might ask that stretching question to support the person that we're working with to start exploring. We might ask permission to start exploring what's underneath, what's coming into the session. And potentially our coaching partner pushes back. They're not ready to explore that yet. So we might have an experience like that, or we might be making up-and this is something that I'm sure you do, Marie, notice when we're mentoring newer coaches-that there's often a belief that our clients aren't ready to go there. They won't, it'll take too much time, it'll be too difficult. And so potentially, as coaches, we make up stories about going to that under the surface of what we start to notice as the top. So that's what we thought we'd bring in today. There's two perspectives: when our client pushes back, or when we're making up stories that our client would also push back.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, so it sounds like if we think they will push back, or we're making up stories that we will push back, that impacts how we approach the client, and how we might ask questions. Is that what I'm hearing, Jeanine, when you say that?

Jeanine Bailey: Or not ask questions.

Marie Quigley: One or the other.

Marie Quigley: And as you say that, I'm thinking about, of course, always coming back to contracting, and if the client's pushing, or you think the client is pushing back, and not wanting to go somewhere, perhaps it's about naming what we see, what we notice, and asking the client, you know, is this something that's important for you to look at? And if it isn't, that's okay. Not every energy or state or question that the client might initially bring might be something they want to look at. They might have second thoughts. I had a coaching session with a coach the other day, and my first topic, I thought, oh yeah, this is what I want to talk about. And then about 5 minutes in, I thought, do you know what? This isn't a coaching topic. It was really something else I wanted to talk about, so it wasn't right for me, and they checked in and said, you know, what else would be more important for you to look at? And my pushback actually helped the conversation be braver under a different topic that I hadn't even realized until I'd gotten there.

Jeanine Bailey: That's really interesting to bring in that perspective of being a coach, being coached, of pushing back, and having that-I'm trusting the trust between you and the coach to be able to do that, the ways of working to be able to push back instead of going down and just following down a path that wasn't going to particularly serve you, but to actually be able to name what was happening, and to be able to choose something more appropriate. That's what I believe I heard.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, that's exactly what happened, and it became a very fruitful conversation, but a very different topic than I even thought I would be going down. But it was necessary for me to actually say, do you know what, this is not what I want to talk about. Because it really wasn't. It was something that I couldn't control. It was not about me, it was about a situation, that there was no thinking that could change that situation. And I was good with who I was being in it. So, yeah, it was a fascinating experience, and one that our clients, if we have good contracting and we've got good rapport, they'll be able to come back and say, no, this isn't it. This is-I want to work with something else. However, what I think you're talking about, maybe a desire not to open up something that they thought might be useful, and they might be hesitant, then, about delving into it. Is that what you're thinking?

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, so, well, coming back to the contracting piece that you brought in, Marie, and I know that when we've been in the training rooms together, something that we do share with the people that-the coaches that we're training-is that potentially we might ask a stretching question because we're aware of something that's beginning to emerge or surface, and the client, our coaching partner, might push back and say, you know, I'm not ready to go there. Which is, again, great, because the client is aware of where they want to go, you know, their boundaries, where they will go, and where they don't want to go. But it's also this understanding that when we're working with our clients, it's not going to be a comfortable conversation, so we want to contract that. And that, potentially, where it starts to feel uncomfortable, that's potentially the place we need to go down. That's the journey that potentially may open up the pathway to growth, to greater awareness, to new insights, healing, whatever, you know, whatever words you want to use for this. So sometimes it's supporting the person that we're working with to recognize, you know, this might be just an initial pushback because it feels uncomfortable, but it just might be the place to go. So it's still letting the person know that they are in charge, that they have choice, so it's not about coercing, but just that reminder, because we know that there's a part of us that wants to protect us, keep us safe, stop us going down those uncomfortable roads and pathways. So it's in that contracting piece that we potentially might want to share with our client: there might be times that you might want to push back, and would it be okay just to check in if that is really your truth, what you really want to do to push back, just to ensure that we are on the right path or not. I hope that makes sense.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I think that's making sense. What comes to mind as I'm listening to you is the inviting or finding out how much challenge or how much support does the client need today, or in this session, or in this moment, because things can change from moment to moment. And so the contracting piece, along with understanding, you know, today I can't deal with challenge, I need support. That's okay. But if they've said they want challenge, and they come back and say, oh, I'm not sure I want to do this, then you can remind them of the contracting you've done to provide challenge with respect, with care, maybe not 100% safety, because I think whenever we're vulnerable, it doesn't feel a safe place, but it could be a brave space that we've stepped into, and that takes courage and connection to each other to be able to do that. So it's really helping the client work out, is this something that's going to be useful for me? Or actually, can it wait? And can we come back to it another time? Or can some self-reflection happen between the session so that they can bring it up again the next time? Because there is no right or wrong, right? We don't want to push the client into something they don't want to do. That's not our job. But the fact they've brought it up is interesting.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, that's-and I will often say, you know, I'm trusting you've brought this in for a purpose. And it may not be the right time to explore, but maybe because it's here, it perhaps is here to be explored. But again, allowing the client, the coaching partner, to be at choice as to what's going to serve them best. And as you say, Marie, potentially there could be some self-reflection they can do to just start to get more comfortable with whatever it is that's starting to emerge, or create more awareness about what's starting to emerge, again, with that trust that it's here because it's ready to be explored, whether it's in that moment or not is another thing, but it's starting to come to surface, to be that opportunity for growth, compassion, curiosity, care, and finding a way forward.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I'm also thinking about the parts of us that pop up when we want to speak about something, but there's a part of us that says, don't talk about that, it's not right. So, it could be worth getting curious about the part that's popped up, rather than the topic itself, but looking at what part has popped up to stop you, and what part is-what part is that playing in your life? How does it play out? What's it protecting you from? What would it be like for it to give you permission to talk about it? So, there's so many ways you can explore something that happens in the moment. You know, the client said, I'm feeling stuck, or I don't want to go there. Well, that could be interesting data in this moment to work with. Doesn't mean they have to go any further than just looking at what's happened. That's the fascinating thing, isn't it?

Jeanine Bailey: Absolutely, and, you know, I was fortunate to be working with a very senior leader today, and yeah, a part came out, and it was protecting other parts of the whole. So by just asking, you know, would you be willing to explore this part? And asking those types of questions that you've shared-you know, what's it here to protect? What does it need to say? What's its intention?-it was a wonderful conversation. And as this person said, you know, I was aware of this part, I really was aware of this part, but I've only just listened to it, I haven't got curious about it to understand it, and what it needs. So, it was a really powerful exploration and session, to integrate.

Marie Quigley: Sounds fabulous.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm.

Marie Quigley: I'm also thinking the other part of the conversation that you named at the beginning was when the coach feels hesitant to go there, because the coach may think, hmm, my client is not able to face it, or they're not able to go there, or, oh, you know, I don't know if they can handle it. And the part of the coach that pops up in that moment might be the scared part, might be the part that doesn't think they're trained enough, or have enough tools, or whatever it is. And of course, we have to be ethical, we have to work within our boundaries and means of our capacities. But it's about also perhaps inviting that part of us that's stopping the client doing the work, just to leave the room a moment, so that you can invite the client to move wherever they want to. It's not about you dictating whether they are capable of it or not. The client knows whether they're capable of it or not.

Jeanine Bailey: Exactly, it's providing that opportunity for the client to step into their wholeness, their resourcefulness, their creativity, their innovation, and so much more. And if we bring in our assessments of what we believe the client is capable of or not, you know, we're imposing our limitations on the people that we work with. And so that potentially limits their ability to grow, to stretch, to learn. So it's remembering that principle: our clients are naturally creative, resourceful, and whole. And I believe, really trusting that whatever they bring in is a signal, a sign of what they want to explore. So it's trusting that, it's trusting the process, and just getting curious with what the client brings in. And we've always said, I think, Marie, that really, to go faster, we actually really need to slow down, and work with what's underneath the surface, the details that the client brings in. And so, if we do that work at the underneath the iceberg, if we do that work, we're supporting our client, actually, to create the awareness and perhaps the new ways of being and doing far more effectively.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, and so I'm thinking about a recent mentoring session where the coach said they heard where they didn't go. They were aware that they didn't go into an emotion or an opportunity, and they said, I didn't want to, because I was afraid it would cause tears, or I was afraid it would cause the client to be uncomfortable. Well, okay, but that's part of our job. Part of our job is-well, certainly for my job, it is not to be the friend, it is to be the challenging partner, with permission, but it is not to avoid things on the client's behalf, thinking that they're not capable.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, exactly. It really means that we've got to step out of assessing, assessing what our clients are capable of. We are not the expert in their life, they are. So we, as coaches, want to create the conditions, the container, to be able to have those courageous conversations, and to check in with them, what they are willing to explore, or not, versus us making an assessment and not even giving the coaching partner the opportunity to be able to explore what they've brought in. So, yes, a lot of newer coaches potentially, out of the best intention to support their client, but as you say, we're not here to be their friends, we're here to support their growth.

Marie Quigley: Lovely. Anything else that needs to be said? I mean, there's lots we could go on, right? We know that. However, we know our listeners like these chunk-sized bites to take away, so anything else that's important, Jeanine, before we-

Jeanine Bailey: I think we've covered, you know, three really interesting perspectives about what emerges from either a coach perspective, or from the client's perspective, in terms of the decision to go underneath the iceberg, to do the deeper work. So I think we've covered a number of perspectives, so I feel complete, as we can for these shorter podcasts.

Marie Quigley: Yeah. Lovely. So, coaches, go away, have a look at your practice, listen to your recordings, notice yourself in practice. Use reflective diaries, take your work to supervision, take your recordings to mentors so that you can unpack them together. There's such value in re-looking at the work you're doing and seeing where the blind areas for you might be. And let us know how you get on.

Jeanine Bailey: Mmm, yes. We really, truly encourage you to do that ongoing development work, so yes. And we'd love to hear your feedback, and if you feel others can benefit from what we've shared today, please do pass our podcast on. We would be most grateful. Thank you for listening.

Marie Quigley: Thank you.