Jeanine Bailey: Hello and welcome, listeners, to the next episode of the Empower World Coaching and Leadership Podcast, and I am delighted to be here with Marie. It's wonderful to be in this space with you again, Marie. It's been a while since we've recorded a podcast together, so thank you for joining me on this wintry, cool day today.

Marie Quigley: Yes.

Jeanine Bailey: Luckily, we're in the comfort of our homes. Welcome.

Marie Quigley: Great to be with you. Welcome as well, Jeanine. It's great to spend this time together, and we've had a lovely catch-up before we came onto the podcast. You're doing some amazing things in your work, and I believe I'm doing some lovely things in my work too, so it's so wonderful to catch up and come together then to share our wisdom, hopefully our wisdom, with the listeners in today's episode.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, I hope so too, Marie. I am trusting we will bring some very effective, useful insights based on what we shared together earlier as to what we would bring into the podcast today, which is that initial, first session that we have with our reflective partners, our clients, in support of the program. So it's that initial starting conversation that sets us up as coaches and our partners to ensure that it is the foundation, it sets us up for what we trust will be a successful program together.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, and one of the reasons for bringing this up, because recently, doing some mentoring and supervision, the question about that first session has come up a lot, and coaches seem to be diving into coaching in the first session, for many reasons, because they want to add value. They want to get straight to the work. But actually, there is so much value in not delving straight into the coaching process, but setting up the foundations of the partnership so that you can create a robust container to understand the client's goals, the client's focus, the client's outcomes, maybe delving into their values, or why on earth they're even thinking about coaching. So the purpose and the meaning of this work that you're going to do together. And I think without that, you just don't have the foundations of a building that can stand the test of time.

Jeanine Bailey: I so resonate, Marie, and it is in that initial conversation that we do want to create those agreed ways of working, as you put your hands out like this, to build the foundation. And as we know as supervisors, often when coaches come to supervision with their cases that they bring along in relation to what perhaps hasn't worked so well, what they're curious about, it often does come back to that contracting, those agreed ways of working to set up that safe as possible container for both parties to work in, or a group to work in. And if we do dive straight into coaching in that first session, we miss the opportunity to actually share how we work, what can set up the conversations for successful outcomes, no matter what the outcome is. And it can also miss actually really getting connected with who you're working with in terms of finding out more about the person in front of you that has chosen to work with you, what's really, truly important to them, why they've come to coaching, what it is that they actually want to experience at the end of the coaching program, and so much more. So, it is that opportunity to really connect deeply with your reflective partner, as well as set up that foundation, as you shared earlier, to support brave, courageous, vulnerable, expansive, and purposeful conversations that get, you know, really down to the heart of what your client is bringing into the session, or the not so much the session, but the actual whole program.

Marie Quigley: Yeah. And I know some coaches have said, but I do a bit of that when I'm in the chemistry session, and of course you do, because you want to connect to your client, you want to share a little bit about how you work and your ways of working. But the chemistry session is often just a 30 to 45 minute snapshot to see if you're a good fit. So it's not robust enough to do the deeper work of the bigger contracting, which is, how are we going to work together? What if this doesn't work? How are we going to address it? What could come up that could stop us having effective outcomes? What if I'm not the right coach for you, and you decide that halfway through? What if I decide as the coach, actually, as a client, as a reflective practitioner, you're not the right fit for me anymore? So, the braver questions around how we are going to work, and what happens if this doesn't work out, that doesn't happen in a chemistry session, because you're interested in really gaining the work.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, absolutely, and those chemistry or discovery sessions, they're often designed to be quite brief. And there's many things that you are potentially, as a coach, incorporating in that discovery chemistry session, which doesn't allow for that fullness of discovery in terms of what needs to be in place to ensure that we can have brave conversations, and to be able to create a deep understanding about what the reflective partner is looking for in the program.

Marie Quigley: That's right. Because even if the person you're working with has had coaching before, they haven't had coaching with you. And you may have a different way of working than other coaching practitioners. You may do the deep transformational work that I know you and I both do, Jeanine. And the other coach they've worked with might do the more transactional work of attaining goals. So, if you don't take time to support the understanding of how you work, your philosophy, what it will look like, sound like, and feel like as you work together, perhaps there's something missing in the client's understanding of what that means for them.

And I also think it begins even before they come to the coaching program. So you've had the chemistry, and they've said yes. But there could be a process. I know I send out a—some people call it an intake form, I call it a getting to know you document, where I ask the bigger questions around the client's life and work to support them to think on a bigger capacity about what they want to work on, who they are in the world, defining moments in their life. So that all starts to get the person to start thinking about what do they actually want to get out of the work. Then they come to this, what I call my discovery session, which is a 2-hour long initial session, and we unpack that intake form, that getting to know you form, and then so much more evolves from that. And I also would potentially share models or interesting processes that might be teaching the client about some of the ways I work, which of course is not coaching, it's teaching. And so it prepares us together to move into the coaching process so that we understand where we are.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, it's so important that we be able to do that little bit of teaching so that the people that we're working with can have no surprises. And they're very aware of what to expect, which can still be uncomfortable, still be a surprise, but they know that there is the opportunity for those questions that really challenge them to think beyond where they've thought before, to normalize that actually these conversations can be uncomfortable because they are being stretched to expand their awareness beyond where they've thought before, and that absolutely does create discomfort. So it's letting clients know that coaching is like no other conversation, so it's preparing them for the unlikely things that can happen in a coaching conversation in service of their goals, in service of their growth, and who they are becoming, who they are choosing to be, unpeeling the layers and revealing their authentic self.

And so, in those discovery sessions, what we can do as coaches is, as you shared, Marie, unpack perhaps those getting-to-know-you type forms. And that's certainly something that I also provide, and often I get the feedback from the people that I'm working with that, actually, I really need some time to reflect on this, because these questions are not like any other question or questions that I've been asked before. So it could be unpacking that. It could potentially be supporting the person that you're working with to understand about feedback they've received as a preparation to the program, to be able to identify, okay, what is it that you want to actually work on in this program together? Or it might be looking at unpacking behavioural profiles, things that can help the coach work with the reflective partner to identify their goals. Or, if working in an organization, it's potentially looking at what are the organization's expectations, how does that impact the person that we're working with, and how do we move through that? So there is, I believe, the opportunity to do some teaching, some educational processes, and creating awareness, again, to set us up for what I trust will be a profound experience.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I love what you say there, Jeanine, and I think sometimes we forget, especially if we're non-directive, if we have a non-directive approach to coaching. So we forget that there's a difference between taking charge as a professional and helping the client feel safe in setting out the process and the program, and then there's the role of being a coach, which is non-directive, if that's how you work. But in the first stage, for a client to feel psychologically safe, there also needs to be some taking charge from us to help them understand the perimeters of our work. And that I think is a different energy. It feels like leading. It is leading, because you're taking them through a process and perhaps sharing information with them. That is different to coaching. And I think that's why some coaches feel a little bit uncertain about it, because they're told they can and can't do this, but actually it's separate, but so linked to the outcomes, that the energy required to hold this kind of space for contracting is really powerful. So it's thinking about the different roles you have in working with your client. You go out and get the work; that takes a role in itself. Once you get the work, you help set the boundaries; that's a different role. And then when you move into the coaching, that's also a different role. So how you wear those hats is so important, I think, to how the coaching evolves.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, again, I resonate with what you're sharing, Marie. It's a different type of energy, conversation in that discovery session, and yet it's still a conversation that is critical, important. And it's, again, about creating that connection to support the person you're working with, to realize, actually, this is where I'm meant to be. And for the coach to also recognize that this is a partner that I do, or perhaps don't, want to partner with. And it will be potentially scattered with those coaching questions to support deeper awareness, and the learning from the session, because there will be learning. Even if it's, you know, this process actually really has set up our expectations, I feel comfortable going forward, so it can be even that from that meta perspective of, this could work in other areas of my life, this type of conversation, so it can be incredibly powerful, instrumental, and effective for the person, even though it may not be strictly coaching, but it just links beautifully to how we can be.

Marie Quigley: I think it does, and I think that's one of the things that confuses a new coach. They want to add value, they want to be useful, and that agenda of adding value makes them think they need to get straight into the coaching, and they discount the value of building the partnership. And, you know, I used to do that as a new coach myself. I'd think, oh, we better get straight into coaching, they're paying me, they want these results. And, as I've grown in the practice, and as I've been to supervision and mentoring and all the other things to help me develop my self-awareness and look at where my coaching has gone wrong, has not been useful, has not been powerful, it's come back, as we mentioned at the beginning, to this process of how well you're contracting for the work you're going to do. And we both know contracting is an ever-evolving part of the coaching process. But when done well at the beginning, it just gives the relationship, the partnership, a better chance of—I was gonna say survival, that's probably the wrong word—but a better chance of outcomes that really matter.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes. And, you know, when I reflect on what my discovery session is like now versus when I first started as a coach, I really didn't have a discovery session. In fact, the school that I went to, we were taught a few things in terms of the ways of working together to support a coaching conversation, but there wasn't the depth that certainly we at Empower World would teach our students in terms of how to create that safe container from the very beginning. There was nothing like that in my training. Now, that was done many, many years ago, so of course, coaching has definitely evolved and grown, etc. But I'm hearing, yes, Marie, there are coaches that still believe I've got to create value, I've got to get straight into it, versus setting this up. So they may be taught it, but potentially it doesn't—there's so much—we know that students learn so much when they do their coach training programs, so they were potentially taught it, but it just hasn't sunk in.

Marie Quigley: That's a really good point. Yeah, that is a really good point. There's so much to take in, isn't there, when you're particularly an adult learner learning something new. How we delete, we distort, and we generalize, and we forget half the things we've been trained on until it comes around and perhaps bites us and makes us realize, oh, there's something missing here.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, so, well, thank you for introducing this topic, Marie. I think it's really an important one that perhaps many new coaches have learned, but haven't absorbed it, and I really appreciate this as a focus, because it is the foundation for successful, empowering coaching conversations.

Marie Quigley: I also think—we've mentioned new coaches, but it also happens with established coaches as well. So, as I'm working with some coaches towards their MCC, they don't have that process involved either, and that's often a falling down of where they can see now that that structure hasn't happened, because it's not something they've given time to focus on, and when they do, things change.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, they absolutely do. Thank you for listening, Marie. I just saw you take a deep breath.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I was just about to say the same thing as you.

Jeanine Bailey: We really, truly appreciate you listening to our podcast, and certainly if you liked it, and we hope you did, please do share with coaches that you feel could benefit from listening to this episode, and we would also welcome your ideas for future podcasts. So, thank you for listening.

Marie Quigley: We look forward to hearing you, seeing you, speaking with you sometime in the near future.

Jeanine Bailey: Thank you, Marie.