Jeanine Bailey:
Hello and welcome listeners and maybe viewers, to the next Empower World Coaching and Leadership Podcast. And today, I am really delighted to bring on a very special guest, Tammy Turner. Welcome, Tammy.

Tammy Turner:
Thank you.

Jeanine Bailey:
Yeah, thank you for being here and appreciating that you're at the end of your day, and I'm at the beginning of my day here in the UK—you in Australia—and I am really delighted and thankful that you're here, Tammy. We met—it feels like about 10 years ago. I'm not too sure now. It was quite a while.

Tammy Turner:
That's about right.

Jeanine Bailey:
When I sought you out for my MCC credential and the mentoring requirements that I needed at that time. I know you stepped in as my mentor and my coach. So, I had a wonderful experience with you, Tammy, and of course we've stayed in connection, in contact, since that time. I've attended your team coaching course, which was fantastic. I really appreciated what I learned from you and the participants as well. So, it was a really great experience. And of course, I wanted to bring you on a podcast for a long time. And so, I'm so pleased that you're here. Tammy, again, I appreciate the wealth of experience that you have in coaching, team coaching, supervision, mentoring—so much more. And I also appreciate how you also give back to the industry as well. I know that that's something that you're passionate about doing. And I really appreciate how you do show up in these ways of giving back to the profession, including doing this podcast. So, thank you and welcome.

Tammy Turner:
Thank you.

Jeanine Bailey:
Tammy, over to you to introduce yourself.

Tammy Turner:
Yeah. Well, you've done a great job of telling a little bit about my background. I think for the listeners, what you'll notice is that I have an American accent. So, I'm originally from Colorado in the US, and I moved to Australia in 1999. And so, I have dual citizenship. But I still do a lot of international work in both countries—you know, both kind of at home here in Australia, but in the US and, like you, in other parts of the world as well. And I guess if you haven't had a chance to read my bio, I'm also a Master Certified Coach with the ICF and with the EMCC. I have team coaching credentials with both of those professional bodies, and I'm also a professional coaching supervisor accredited with EMCC. And I guess that, you know, one of the things that I have as an advantage in—what I've done—the other thing I guess I mention as well is, I've done something like, I don't know, 25 academic publications or something like that. And I think that that's quite interesting because so many of us spend time making money and not actually, let's say, giving back to the profession or thinking about what we're providing or, you know, actually researching things or sharing our experience with other people. And, you know, I'm probably the least wealthy person in the industry because I've been in it for so long. But it's, as you said, kind of a passion point of mine as well.

But yeah, I think that what I was going to say in, you know, 26 years or whatever—25 years of doing the work—you know, I think that we go through cycles, right? We were talking about this earlier where, you know, right now the economy is not where we would like it to be, and there's political unrest, and we're coming out of COVID a few years. All sorts of different dynamics are happening. People—you know, are they going back to work, not going back to work? So, there's a lot of complexity that is happening now that I personally haven't seen. But then, equally, if we just strip it back to human nature and what people need or what they're looking for, you know, like we're in the same track that we always are. So, it's kind of interesting when you reflect on your career that way.

Jeanine Bailey:
Yeah, yeah, it is, isn’t it? It’s super interesting that you bring that in, Tammy, that yes, things seem to be even more complex, but it is bringing it back down to the root of who we are, the core of who we are. Yes, support people to navigate those challenges that are coming up. And so, I appreciate you bringing that in and sharing your background. Because Tammy, of course, you’ve written those academic papers, and you’ve also created some books as well—some wonderful books that support coaches and leaders to be even more effective. So again, I really appreciate how much you’ve done to serve this wonderful profession of coaching. And because of your background, there are so many different tunnels we could go down today. But we’ve landed on—

Tammy Turner:
The podcast today is four hours rather than a half an hour.

Jeanine Bailey:
That would be amazing. We’ll try and stick to around 20 minutes, but it could be a little bit longer, given the wealth of information that you have and the experience that you have. And we’ve kind of landed on team coaching. But there’s a few things that have fallen out of that. So, tell me from your perspective, in relation to team coaching, what is so important to understand about team coaching, particularly, as you say, in this time of great challenge, unrest, and uncertainty?

Tammy Turner:
Yeah, well, that is why I brought up the context, because I think that working with teams and groups—or what I sometimes call the collective—is probably the most impactful value-for-money that an organization can invest in. Because you get the collective to be able to identify areas for itself, be a witness of what they need to change, and then get support around those changes or embedding things that they already do well. Or, you know, things like accountability factors can be agreed upon, and then some interdependencies created. So, whereas if you compare that to individual coaching, you have one person out of a team, or one person who’s a senior leader within an organization, and you might be sending them back into a toxic organization, and they themselves may have had some great epiphanies, but then that goes nowhere. Or the leader gets some great support through individual coaching, but then needs to go back and lead an initiative or catalyse a group around something or organize a merger and acquisition. Or, you know, there are a thousand things I can list off here, but sometimes those two disciplines together work really well.

Jeanine Bailey:
Yeah, it’s a beautiful way that you’ve expressed that—how team coaching can be such a great investment for an organization. It’s bringing everybody together and tapping into that collective wisdom, and again, supporting them to identify. So, take responsibility, which we know is one of the most powerful ways to create and implement change—when the individual or the team takes responsibility for what they want to change and how they’re going to change it through that facilitation of a team coaching conversation or conversations.

Tammy Turner:
Absolutely. And I know one of the things that I’ve noticed with team coaches—or with coaches, I shouldn’t even say team coaches—with coaches and also the industry as a whole is this notion that group, and team coaching are different. And, you know, one of the things—and I’ve talked about this in teaching students throughout the years as well—is that to me, a team is defined by its interdependencies. And it’s quite difficult because, you know, so in the Western world anyway, socially, we want to be part of a team. So even if we’re not a team—like many top teams, executive leadership teams are actually more like a group. You know, they’re gold individually, they talk about what’s happening in their area, and then they compete for resources. They aren’t really supporting each other to achieve that, even though their ultimate goal is to support the entire organization. So that’s a great example of—it’s a group. But in name it actually functions much more—sorry, in name it’s a team, but it functions much more like a group because it doesn’t have the interdependencies. But yet, as a team coach, you can go into that top team and start looking at what are the interdependencies that make sense and support that team to actually function like a team as well. Whereas, conversely, you can still go into, say, for example, a working party or a board subcommittee or a group that is responsible for a major initiative in an organization—or, you know, M&As for example, when you’ve got two organizations that are trying to merge together. And those are all groups by function because they don’t have as much interdependencies. But because they have such a strong objective and purpose for what they’re there to achieve, I would argue—against the conventional stuff that’s published out there—that they are equally like a team, even though they may be functionally called a group.

So, I think it’s quite a hair’s difference between those things. And does it really make sense for us to compartmentalize when actually a collective needs help—whatever it’s called? And are we ethically saying either yes, I can do that, or no, that’s not within my remit. I don’t feel comfortable with that, or I don’t have the training or, you know, whatever those factors are. And we’re being ethical.

Jeanine Bailey:
Hmm, yeah. Yeah, thank you, Tammy, for sharing that. I don’t know if you can hear Batman in the background.

Tammy Turner:
No.

Jeanine Bailey:
Great. That is my cat who is talking very loudly at the moment. So Tammy, given what you’ve just shared in terms of that complexity of identifying team versus perhaps group, but potentially groups can perhaps be even worked with like a team—you know, so as you say in those merger and acquisition contexts, you’ve got two groups that are potentially aiming to come together—what would you say is, how would you define, is the difference between the team and the group coaching, if at all?

Tammy Turner:
I think to me, the slight difference is—and this kind of goes against the way some people’s work is published out there in the marketplace—so many team coaches, sorry academics who have put together models and tools for team coaches will say that you kind of need to start with a commission or a purpose or a mission first, and then that defines or anchors, I guess, the team in the way that they’re going to work together. Whereas with a group, you probably may not need that, because they’re not going to be together for as long of a period of time.

Tammy Turner:
And then there's things like membership, which is how long, you know, are people in? Are they out? Are they always in? Are they always out, how long does the per, you know? Does that collective stay together? etc? Right? So those are the factors generally that sort of define the way in which you work with those collectives. I wonder whether or not sometimes a team you actually don't need to start with a mission or a commission or a purpose. But actually, you can go in and do some observation and say, well, you know what I'm noticing is X. So, you do straight old facilitation and help them to start learning how they work together differently, and in which case, then, its kind of doesn't matter if they're a team or a group.

I think that one of the skills that I have found that if I'm working with a group that I approach differently is that I have a much stronger outcomes focus because you don't know what the membership is going to be. You know they might be coming in and out, but equally I've coached many teams throughout the years who will have turnover in their teams that are supposed to be intact teams. So, I don't see that as being a big of a factor, so either of those I might be looking at. So what's the narrative, or what are the things that we need to share with the people who are not here today to keep them informed, which is great practice, anyway, because how often do teams do that in between meetings when somebody's at home on carers leave or is on, you know, annual leave, or what have you or their technology didn't work these days, right?

And so, I think that to me there's not as much difference other than the fact that we take more of outcomes focus with groups, I would make sure that they know how to have their membership guidelines, I guess, agreed upon. And then what happens when those members are not there. And I would also be looking at what are some of the tools that I might be using a little bit differently, because many of the tools that are published out there are exclusively for one or the other, and it doesn't mean that you can't use them for the other. But you need to be aware, as the deliverer of those tools. Will that work? You know there are plenty of diagnostics out there, for example, that measure. Let's call it team effectiveness that you could be using with a group.

Well, to me the team is formed because they are there to make decisions and get stuff done, and their purpose, or whatever it is that they're meant to achieve is defined by the external stakeholder, and that they are interdependent on what it is that they need to achieve. Whereas the group is oftentimes formed because of a need of some sort or another, you know. Is it like I talked about before? Because we're buying a company, or a board subcommittee is also a really good example of this. They're formed because they want to look at, you know, salaries or risk, or something like that. Or, you know, Google is a really good example about this, because in Google you have teams that are much more dynamic. I think this is a word that I like using is that you know, a dynamic team is much more effective in today's day and age, and it is a more like a working party. Because if you are in a company like Google, you know, they might, you might, as a specialist, need to be involved in this design group, or you might be a part of the, you know, whatever marketing team, and in which case you are still bringing your skills across, even though the purpose of those two different functional areas are slightly different.

Yeah, I don't know if I've answered it. But to me that it's muddy, it's Gray, and that's why you're not getting such a clear, defined answer from me. Because I don't agree with the stuff that's been published since, say, 1953. I think. I don't know if this is helpful or not, Jeanine, but I think to me where I am clearer is the difference between facilitation versus working with a team or a group in that sort of coaching fashion. And I think that there's a couple of factors that listeners probably need to be thinking about for themselves, because there are many, many team and group coaches out there who have not gone through any sort of training, or really have thought about their practice that much. They've been doing it for a long time, and they like myself. I have done this myself before the industry got clear, I think, or is still getting clear around what that is.

But I think that there's—if we compare, because you asked me to talk about the difference between individual and then group and team coaching—is that when you look at individual coaching, the industry standards, regardless of who the professional body is, is that you are not telling the client what to do. You are not hired to be the specialist about that person's role, even though you might even have had that role in the past. You know the client is whole, and they have the answers inside themselves, but equally you can share opinions with them as long as you permission and ask. And you know, put it out there, right. These are really standard. So, then you've got to kind of use that same litmus of: Am I approaching the collective the same way?

Because, I would say, in general, many people out there are taking responsibility for that team or group's outcomes. They are telling them, or trying to be subject matter experts or actually defining the brief with the client around outcomes that they may not even be able to get, because until you get into working with a team or a group, it's actually pretty complex. And I think the number one thing to make it—whether or not you're an individual, or a group or team coach, or even a coaching leader, for that matter—is how comfortable are you in not knowing and being in the uncertainty? Because there's lots of stuff happening, especially when you start thinking systemically around these things, which I know we don't have time to go into today but is one of my areas of interest. But I think it's a litmus that we need to think about. Yeah.

Jeanine Bailey:
Whereas you know… So, and from your perspective, perhaps what you would call as the definition between team and group—for the listeners' sake, what would you say that would be, Tammy?

And that—that's what I'm hearing from you, Tammy, is that it is muddy. There's no clear black and white. It potentially can evolve, I'm guessing, with certain clients that, you know, it's dynamic—as one of the words you've used—in terms of how companies operate. So what I'm hearing from you is, you know, when approaching organizations, when they've requested you to come and meet them, it's really listening out for the needs and the desires of the organization and responding accordingly, versus going in with a black and white head of “it's either team or group,” and—but it's being present with them and supporting them to understand again what's going on underneath all of the stories and the experiences, etc., to get to the core of what's happening for the team or what's desired.

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thank you for reinforcing some of the ways that we need to be as coaches when we're supporting teams, groups, to support—to bring out the best in them, and to support them to identify and take that responsibility for what it is that they truly want to experience, create, whatever it may be.

So, Tammy, what do you believe are the key attributes of a team coach? I mean, you've mentioned some of those already. What would you add to that, over and above? Because you also mentioned systemic thinking, so that's potentially something to expand on. Thank you.

Tammy Turner: Yeah, I think that there's that. And I think that you know one of the things that I have noticed even more so now is, you know, many, many of us as coaches don't have a sales background, and so depending on when you entered the marketplace as an individual coach, it's actually reasonably easy to get an individual coaching brief because it's kind of become a commodity over time.

And whereas in team and group coaching it's more of a consulting sort of a thing, where you need to be comfortable in going in and having a conversation to contract about what's needed. How much are you going to charge. How long is the engagement? What happens when things don't go as planned? You know all of that. So, I think that that's one of the skills that isn't defined by any of the professional bodies. But I find for myself, I oftentimes have to reach out to my networks and colleagues, and so on, because, you know, it's to see the complexity of everything a client might need usually takes more than my brain to do.

And there are so many different things that you can actually offer. If you are just trying to do the same thing that you've done with your five other clients that may not be as client-centered as what you would like to be. So, are you actually staying fresh and looking at what you need to actually do to stay with what the client needs? Otherwise, you're probably training or doing development.

And then, as you said, there's the systemic thinking, and I will just say a couple of bullet points on this, because we could do a whole webinar on this alone. But I think it's like, are you when you're in the room, are you looking only at the dynamics between those team members? Are you actually able to kind of look further afield and go? Okay, so what if the stakeholders were in this room? What would they be saying?

Or given the global financial crisis or given, you know, people going back to work or given the pandemic or given, you know, the climate crisis, or whatever those factors are, are you actually able to weave it in if it's necessary? Not because we need to talk about it, but because oftentimes the client needs to have a look at that, because it impacts on their business decisions.

And I think that's the last thing that I would say is that to work effectively with the collective, especially if you're in a larger organization, you probably need to have some business savvy. Because you are with people who are making decisions on behalf of, you know, local, national, maybe international sorts of businesses. And, you know, can you hold your own? Can you talk? Do you understand the relationship between the Board and the executive? If you're working at that level, or what have you? Or if you're working with a family-owned business, do you have that? You know the understanding of how a family business operates compared to a corporate? Or if you're working in Federal government, how do they go through their cycles and those sorts of things? So, I think that we need to be a bit broader than what we do if we're just working on a human behaviour change in a one-to-one.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, now that that's a great value that I believe in those few bullet points. For the listeners, for potentially coaches who are considering becoming team coaches, or perhaps already believe that they are doing that, and maybe really well. But maybe there's more to consider. So really appreciate, appreciate that. And that systemic lens is so, so important. And as we shared earlier, getting supervision.

Tammy Turner: Hmm.

Jeanine Bailey: Is going to be key for team coaching.

Tammy Turner: And of course, we have a little bit of bias, because we're both supervisors. But equally I can say, if I take my supervisor hat off and go into my either individual or group slash team coach hat, I would not be where I am today without supervision.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah. I hear that Tammy and I. I know that Marie and I, when we worked with teams many, many years ago, when we're living in Qatar. Supervision really wasn't around then it potentially was. But it wasn't known to us. We weren't aware of it. And I really appreciated the ability to work as a partner with Marie. You know that two heads are better than one, being able to bring in different perspectives and support each other through those through work. Working with teams and organisations, and I do believe that gaining with hindsight, gaining supervision would have really helped us as partners as well.

Tammy Turner: Yeah, yeah.

Jeanine Bailey: To identify those blind spots, and of our thinking doing to support us, to be even more effective.

Tammy Turner: A 100%. And, as you know, because I've written a book on peer supervision that you know the — or I should say so arrogantly — I've co-authored. But since I'm the person here. Yeah. So, the — I think that, you know, we forget to reach out to our colleagues. And I think that, you know, professional supervision is great and really has a need and a potency out there. But that doesn't mean that you cannot reach out to your colleagues as well. I think it's a both-and in my book and I do both.

Jeanine Bailey: I agree. I really agree with that and the saying, two heads are better than one. Of course, more heads are potentially even better than two. Which is why I love group supervision, for example, bringing in a whole lot of different perspectives for the person who is being supported. It just is incredibly powerful and.

Tammy Turner: Absolutely.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah. Very supportive, very insightful.

Tammy Turner: So, I know we probably need to bring this to a close. I just wanted to say one more thing that was dawning on me when I was speaking before. That is, I think, useful for the buyer of team coaching or group coaching. If anybody out there is listening for this, or also might also be useful for teams, is that, you know, one of the things that I find particularly challenging and yet is really important to success of an engagement is thinking about it as a partnership. Because, you know, an engagement could be three sessions, for example, with a team or a group, or it could be three years. And the more that you can think about it as we are in this together, we're learning together, you know, and price things accordingly, and understand that what you're buying is a process, not an outcome.

Jeanine Bailey: That's a beautiful takeaway wrap-up, Tammy, for our podcast today. I really appreciate the wisdom that you've brought in the knowledge and experience and supporting us to — all of us to — become more aware about the complexities of team coaching and how powerful it can be as well. Such an investment. As you said from the beginning, it is a great investment for an organization to invest in the whole team versus individuals, and of course we know that individual coaching can be very appropriate and powerful too. We do know that.

Tammy Turner: A 100%. Yeah.

Jeanine Bailey: Thank you, Tammy, again, really appreciate you being here and again sharing your wisdom. So, listeners, we would love your feedback. Any thoughts, ideas, questions. Please do let us know, and of course we trust that you can see Tammy's connections — how to connect with her. Please feel free to do so, and we trust that you've got so much value from this podcast today. Thank you, Tammy.

Tammy Turner: Thank you.