Jeanine Bailey: Hello and welcome listeners, to our next Empower World Coaching and Leadership podcast, and I am delighted to be here. It looks like I am in a sunny place, and I am in Crete right now and Sarah, my special guest, I think it's sunny back in the UK, which is wonderful to hear as well. I'm about to go back, so it's something to look forward to. But I'm very grateful to be here with my special guest, Sarah Barry. Marie Quigley is not here with me today, and I again am very fortunate to be here with Sarah, who I've invited to come onto our podcast because I met the wonderful Sarah at a training that we did late last year, together with Paul Sambar about working with Lego bricks in our coaching and supervision. So we had a lovely, intimate training, and Sarah was one of those colleagues who I met who, as soon as I met you, Sarah, I felt the joy, and I continue to hear you speak about finding the joy in the work that we did together, and outside of the work we did together. And of course, I've been seeing your social media posts, and it's often about going where the joy is. So I thought to myself, I've really got to get Sarah in on our podcast because I truly believe that's what we as coaches, we support our clients ultimately through the challenges to find their joy, find their inspiration, find what really motivates and inspires us to get out of bed in the morning, and do what we do purposefully, mindfully, consciously, etc. And so much more. Sarah, I've said a lot. First of all, I just want to hand over to you to introduce yourself to our listeners, and once again, thank you for your time today.

Sara Barrie: Hey, Jeanine, it's an absolute pleasure. And I think when we talk about going where the joy is. You mentioned the sunshine in Crete? Well, just somewhere on a little peninsula between Liverpool and Chester, then the sunshine here, and for me, that's always a joy. So just, I suppose, in terms of a by way of introduction bit of context. Then I came into coaching from a corporate career. So, I'd worked as an executive locally here. At the beginning and a career that took me here near to Liverpool to London, a few places in between. Then I moved into a global role, working mainly for 1 billion dollars of corporations. And I moved to a small UK boutique company, going from billions to millions. And in that role, I very purposely went into that role which was an unexpected turnaround situation, so that if looking forward, I wanted to move into a coaching and consulting role, then I'd had a variety of different experiences, different cultures, different sectors, different geographies. And it would just help me with a wider context for coaching.

So it was at that stage in my career that I thought, what do I actually love in my role? What do I love about this corporate role? And to go back to your point. It was about what gave me the most joy. So when I really thought about it, it was about developing the relationships with my people, creating new leaders. But it was also that relationship with my clients. So it was largely around transforming leaders and transforming businesses with some pretty bold, amazing, ambitious clients. And along the way, those colleagues and clients became friends. The friendships transcended work. And basically we became network colleagues. And when I was looking at that phase of my career to think, where do I go? What's next? Then, like all wise people, I turned to my network to use their wisdom, and it really did make me think about coaching, because it was a way to focus on the areas of my role that did give me the most joy. So I negotiated with the company to give me to invest in training for me as a coach. And honestly, at that stage, Jeanine, I thought, do you know the worst that can happen is, it'll make me a better leader. I can lead through coaching. And at best well, who knows? You know, at that time 2013. Maybe it'll just give me a new entrepreneurial opportunity. But at that stage it was. I was almost thinking, yeah, worst case. And that's really how I started. That's how I started before I took my coach training. That was how I got into coaching. It was really about that joy of the relationships and being with people, building new leaders, and transforming organizations. That was my entry.

Jeanine Bailey: How beautiful! And you know I really resonate with a lot of what you have shared, Sarah, because I stumbled on coaching, and it was through a friend of mine who approached me because she was doing coach training and asked me to be her guinea pig. And yeah, what I found was I really I really... and I said Yes, because I trusted my friend completely, not really knowing what coaching was. But I trusted her, and I went on a journey, and in the end she got so busy and she said, "Look, Jeanine, I can't finish the coaching that I started with you, but as your friend, not as a coach, but as your friend, I believe you would make a great coach." And I was, "Oh, really?" I thought, "Really?" Because I still in my mind had a belief that coaching was about having everything sorted and being able to give advice and guide, and lead.

Yeah, and I didn't know. I don't know whether my friend was doing that or not. I wasn't consciously looking at the process of coaching at that stage. All I knew was that it was joyful. It was a joyful process, it was stretching. It was uncomfortable at times, but I knew I was learning and growing. And I remember having to sign, not having to, because I wanted to sign up for the coach training, which meant that I had to fly from Qatar to Australia to do the training, because there were no coaching schools at that time in Qatar. And so I was sort of "Oh, I'm not sure whether this is the right thing," and my friend said to me, "Jeanine, even if you don't become a coach, you'll go on a fantastic personal development journey." So I relate to what you're saying. It was an... I realized, okay, this is a fantastic opportunity to keep growing and learning. What do I want to do when I grow up? So, even though I was decades old. Sorry, go ahead.

Sara Barrie: It's funny, though, isn't it? Because you hear this so often from HR people that so many people think they're brilliant people leaders, and as a result, most leaders think that they coach, and I was one of them. And I look back. And I think, you know, I thought, "Wow, I'm good at coaching," and it wasn't until my coach training that I actually realized what I was good at coaching, coaching with a dependence. And it was about a dependence on me as the leader, and my people loved me. I had great success, and it just occurred to me, and I remember being in my training, being really scared, thinking, "Can I coach people who don't work for me?" And it was at that time that I thought, actually, it's probably obvious to everybody else. And it wasn't obvious to me. And I'm thankful so much to the coach training that it gave me that realization early on.

So it's an uncomfortable time in life, I think, when you realize it's not about you. And as a coach it was really about being... well, it is really about being in service of my client. And for me, I just... It's a fundamental that you remember why you're in the room. You're not there for you. You're there for it to be in service of your client and of their coaching goals. And actually, it's all about them. And I think one of the things I'm grateful to my training for was really helping me flip that narrative, because like most leaders, I thought, "Do you know this coaching lark? I'm good at it." And here we are, some 11 and a half years on in my own business thinking, yeah, that was an amazing reflection at that time, you know one of those inflection moments in life.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, yeah. And it's a powerful thing to have that realization and recognition that actually, yeah, it's not about us being the expert. We don't have to do the work. Yes, we facilitate a conversation, and yes, we have the expertise. We've been trained to have the expertise to facilitate that conversation, but the deep dive, the doing all the work, to find our way to support our clients, to find their way through whatever they're experiencing. You know they're doing the heavy lifting, and we are there to support them, to ultimately find the joy, and yes, sometimes the joy might not be apparent because some of our clients could be experiencing really challenging situations. But there are glimmers of hope and opportunity to, as you said, change the narrative and create a new narrative.

Sara Barrie: Yeah. And I think of the people I coach now in senior leaders, who, having sat that side of the table, and now sitting this side of the table as a coach. You know the leaders I coach leading through uncertainty. I mean this geopolitical climate. You work globally. We've got war in Europe. We've got that changing of the guard in terms of the global norms. I mean for most global businesses. That is a pretty extreme scenario planning. Huge pressure for results from so many differing stakeholders, differing agendas. And there's just this expectation that these C-suite leaders, yeah, they just quietly manage their own resilience. They absorb enormous pressure so that everybody else can do well. And they really do feel the weight of the expectation growing. The scope creep, that political scope creep that's never ending, and just being human. Their energy and exhaustion levels are wearing thin. So it's an immense privilege to be in the room supporting those people at times of real high stakes, high risk. And I think that's when you realize it takes courage to be a coach.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, yeah, it really does, doesn't it? It? It really does. And, as you say, the world is in such a place of flux and change and uncertainty, and it takes great courage to be an effective leader as well, as you say.

Sara Barrie: And it's a good point, because it's not only about being an effective leader, but it's being courageous enough to either be given help or be open to help or to ask for help. You know, there's so many people that don't want that—they don't want to ask for help. And it's a really amazing leadership skill, because you can't do it alone. It's too hard.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, it really is, isn't it? It's recognizing—it's for effective leaders to recognize—they don't have to have all the answers.

Sara Barrie: Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because you grow up in your career by having them, and you get to a certain level where you just can't possibly have all the answers. You know the scenario we're in now. And I do think that's where it is for coaches to be courageous. If I think about it, it's being courageous with your coachee, because I work with some really bold, talented, ambitious leaders. But it's also being courageous with your questions—the questions that evoke that awareness, that shine a light on different perspectives. Courage to pause, to actually encourage people to pause, to be silent, to listen, and to truly listen without any interruption. Just listen to understand where they're going with their thinking. And that challenge as a coach just to be able to hold up the mirror and, in a way, I suppose, ask the questions that no one else is going to ask you, and to have the courage to just go beyond what your clients think's possible and really work with them so in their minds they can be the game changer that they really want to be, or actually in this climate that they need to be. And I think that's one of the things for me that gives me so much joy—just seeing and being with some really superb people and watching them go beyond. That's where it really does give me joy.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, hmm, yeah.

Sara Barrie: And I think actually, with you being in Australia, there's an Australian Rugby coach who actually coached in England, and you know, so much of our business coaching comes from sport. Unless you are a Rugby fan—Eddie Jones in Rugby—he gave a brilliant quote. I remember listening to him in a conversation, and he said, "There's a time in life when you're ready to be a coach. There's a time in life when it's too much about you, and your own ego gets in the way. But there's a time in life when you're ready to be a coach." And I think that's also a self-awareness thing—is that who you are at this time. And I think that really helps early on when you're thinking about coaching in coach training—are you really ready for this? Because you might not be, and there's nothing wrong with that. But there's a time in life when you're ready to coach, and that's always stayed with me.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, yeah, thank you for bringing that in. Because we certainly at Empower World, we speak to many people who are considering training to become a professional coach. And of course, they don't always choose to do that. And we really trust that potentially, they're not ready yet. Maybe never. But maybe down the track. And it might not be with us. It might be with someone else. But it's really believing that the people that are ready will come and not putting pressure on ourselves, that everyone should become a coach as much as we would like that.

Sara Barrie: Coaching skills for leaders—it's a brilliant skill set. So, you know, and that was the situation I was in. Do I go back in for leadership? Do I actually move forward and be an independent coach? It wasn't quite that binary, but because I knew the skills I learned would help my leadership. But again, it's unrealistic to think that that's what everybody wants. For me, it was the right time, and it was the excitement of starting on an entrepreneurial journey. And what I'm hearing now, how long—11 or so years later? I mean, like you, I'm an ICF Master Coach—it's one of like 3% of people throughout the world. The investment that goes into that has been another source of joy. But at the same time, it's been incredibly hard work, and I think that's the kind of journey that—the more we share about that investment, the commitment ethically to "I will keep investing in myself"—that helps me be current, be present, and actually just work with my clients knowing if I've invested in me, I'm investing in them. I just choose differently about where I invest in my development now, and who I invest with, which is obviously how we got to meet. You know, I want to work with brilliant people. I want to be inspired by great coaches, and I want a difference in what I learn. I don't necessarily want academia and essay writing anymore. So again, it's about the choices you make in your own development—not only for you as a coach, but for the leaders and the people who you coach really.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, absolutely, Sarah, and as you say, it is an ongoing investment. The profession of coaching is an ongoing investment, and we can choose to do as much or as little as we want. Certainly, to be credentialed with the ICF, we do have to meet a minimum, and of course we can do so much more than that. And just going back to what you also shared earlier, Sarah, in relation to that joy, that learning these skills that you were sharing earlier, in terms of how we hold that space for leaders to really reflect and reflect deeply, not rush in, not rescue. Hold that space to do that really powerful, reflective thinking through the types of questions that we ask. Questions that leaders potentially never ask themselves or get asked by others, because we are deeply listening to what they are bringing in, not just the words, but the whole language of somatic energy, emotions, etc. So, we're listening to that. So the questions we potentially ask are going to be very stretching, because it's expanding their thoughts. I was just reflecting, as you were sharing that, how it can be an incredibly uncomfortable conversation for the people that we are coaching, and it brings us joy. So, yeah, an interesting dichotomy, if that's the right word. If you're listening to this and you're not trained as a coach—if you're trained as a coach, you will resonate with what we are sharing here—how through people going on that uncomfortable journey, they create so much incredible awareness and Aha's and that new way of thinking and new perspectives that supports them to achieve what it is they want to achieve, to bring in new habits, ways of being, thoughts, etc., that aligns with who they really are and potentially letting go of what's not serving them anymore. So that’s what brings us joy. We recognize that our people are coming into their authentic self.

Sara Barrie: Yeah. And I think we need help with that paradox of finding our authentic self as well. I know from my own leadership experience, you're fed this language of “Be you, be so you,” and that's a very privileged way of looking at it, because actually, some of the things that you do naturally don't actually serve you in that leadership role. One of my clients used to say, "Oh, they all come to me, I'm like the mum," and I had to say, "How is that serving you when you're interviewing to be Managing Director?" You know, they don't want mum. They want Managing Director. Actually making it sound a bit like an endurance test here—it might be putting people off in terms of this coaching—but great coaching really, I mean from my point of view, it's absolutely about adding energy, making it meaningful, making it impactful, but also having fun along the way. As we just said several times in this pod, you know, making it joyful.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, absolutely, Sarah. And you know, I read one of your recent or fairly recent social media posts where you shared 10 life lessons at the beginning of the year. And I really appreciated the lessons that you brought forward in that. Lesson number 8 was to find the inspiration. Lesson number 9: go where the joy is. And lesson 10: invest in you. So as I reflect that back to you, Sarah, what comes up for you as we start to wrap up our conversation today?

Sara Barrie: It's interesting, Jeanine. You know, just thinking about this—I haven't really given it a lot of reflection—but when I think about it, being a coach and leading a coaching business, obviously it's impacted my life. And that's from choosing to work more flexibly, running a global practice. But crucially, it is about the energy it gives me, the depth of the relationships—you know, the real depth you go to in working with people—and that achievement through others, the sheer joy of seeing them achieve. Whether it's moving molehills, moving mountains—whatever it is that they achieve—and them achieving and feeling better, being better, showing that presence, that strong presence, that confidence. You know all of that impacts not only on my work, but on my life. And that's why I know the job makes my heart sing.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, hmm, yeah. And so, when you are navigating your practice, your coaching practice, and who you work with Sarah, what advice would you, or what questions would you offer to? Maybe coaches, maybe leaders, maybe potential people considering to become coaches, what would you share with them in terms of finding their own joy. How do they? How do they know they've discovered it? Or how do they discover their joy?

Sara Barrie: And I think in the relentless pace within which we all operate today. Sometimes you can just get so wrapped up in it that you forget, and you let the other. The should do's the need to do's get in the way of actually what's really important about this life. And we're not here for a long time. I think it's Oliver Berkman, isn't it? We have 4,000 weeks. That's a life that's not work. That's just a life. And just really thinking about what does make your heart sing. And there's very much a view that you know. Oh, I've worked for this big corporation for 22 years, I coach. I'll go and train to be a coach. But as we know, the realities of running a coaching business to make it profitable sustainable to really the kind of qualities you need to be a business leader are not just the qualities you need to be a coach. So I would say, you know, think very seriously and to your point before, just by taking a coaching course, it doesn't mean that you become self-employed or an entrepreneurial coach, or you run a coaching business. Coaching helps in every aspect of life and across different relationships. Never easy coaching. Family. But you know, let's put that one to one side for now. So yeah, that's what I would say. Think carefully. There's more to running a business than enjoying helping people.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, that's really wise advice, Sarah. And we certainly know coaches that have undertaken training. And potentially, as you say, the other skills that potentially need to come in to create a coaching practice is maybe not their strength. And still those coaching skills that they have learnt can be transferred across every part of their life as a parent in the community, as a friend, and even to transfer them into leadership. If you're moving into a or in a leadership role. These skills are all about building relationships, communicating effectively, creating the container, to have really powerful conversations that stretch and support people, to grow and learn or there's the opportunity to become an internal coach. There's there's so many ways that you can utilize these wonderful skills of coaching that brings joy to self because we are in service of others as well as supporting our people, that we serve to find their joy. And I think that's the wonderful gift that we, as coaches or leaders who coach, can appreciate when we go undertake this line of profession, because when we're able to support others. It's a wonderful gift to ourselves. And I think if we're if we're if we recognize the energy is low in the work that we do, then something needs to shift and change, whatever that may be.

Sara Barrie: And your job is to give energy to support. So again, it's that same old thing you can't pour from an empty cup. You've got to look after you to be able to look out for and coach other people.

Jeanine Bailey: Hmm, yeah, I think that's such a powerful takeaway. We've got to put on our that wonderful saying, we've got to put on our next oxygen mask. Yes, but that doesn't mean we have to be an expert in other people's lives. But take care of ourselves 1st and foremost, so that we have that energy to again bring out the joy in others. Sarah, thank you so much for being on our podcast today, I really admire love, your energy. And I really appreciate you coming into my world and bringing joy in mind. So thank you for also supporting our listeners to potentially also feel and experience the joy as you share.

Sara Barrie: Yeah, Jeanine, it's been a pleasure. Actually, it's been great just to chat and think through some different options. But definitely, you know, I leave with this this job, this business. It absolutely makes my heart sing. And yeah, I wish everyone that kind of joy.

Jeanine Bailey: Thank you, Sarah, and listeners. If you've enjoyed this podcast. Please do send us your feedback in various ways on the social media platforms and via email support at empower-world.com. We'd love to hear your feedback. And of course, we are sharing Sarah's contact details in terms of LinkedIn, etc. So if you would like to get in contact, please use those links, and I thank you all for listening, and look forward to you joining us next time. Thank you, Sarah. Once again.

Sara Barrie: Thank you. Thanks for having me.