Marie Quigley: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you are in the world. My name's Marie Quigley, and I'm here today without my lovely business partner, Janine Bailey. She's travelling in China and Japan right now, and I hope she's having an amazing time. But I am here with the wonderful Pam Daniel.

Pam and I met probably a year or 2 ago, and we're both in the city of Sheffield, and Pam is an influencer here, and she's got over 20 years of professional experience, but also lived experience, probably more than 20 years of lived experience working with communities predominantly tackling health inequalities with the voluntary sector, and she's a massive influencer around creating change and race equality. And she's particularly passionate about getting leadership to reflect the communities they serve. You'll hear community a lot when you talk to Pam. She's a really inspiring woman. Her care and dedication for the communities where she lives have seen her being nominated for a lifetime achievement award. And that's pretty spectacular.

And her own challenging tough, personal journey has inspired many, many people to aim higher and achieve their potential. Pam's also a qualified executive coach and mentor, and is finally taking the leap to move out and branch out on her own as "Pam Daniel Consulting". Pam, Good morning.

Pam Daniel: Good morning. Thank you, Marie, for having me here.

Marie Quigley: Great to have you, Pam. Have I missed anything out from that Introduction?

Pam Daniel: Oh, gosh, well, I was trying to keep that brief. But you know, no, that's great. That's really good. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. I think it's that experience. Is it really that 2030, however many years experience, professional experience and lived experiences? Yeah, quite the thing, really. When you look back on what you've achieved in life. And yeah, wanting to use that to move forward really and move other people's lives forward. That's the aim.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, beautiful. And you're taking the leap.

Pam Daniel: Oh, yes, yes, yes, that's a story. Everything's a story in my life. Yes. Do you want me to explain how that leap came about. Oh, that would be great, because oh, my God!

Marie Quigley: Really important to me, Pam. My 1st business was called Golden Leap.

Pam Daniel: Completely.

Marie Quigley: Was because I was making leaps, and I thought the people that I wanted to work with were making these massive leaps in their life from a golden place. I'm touching my belly at the moment from a golden place of trust and purpose, and so much more than just taking a leap into the dark, but really taking a leap from the wisdom within. And I know that's what you're doing. So yeah, tell us about this. You're making.

Pam Daniel: The leap. How's the leap come about? Well, I, as you say, I qualified in. I did my Ilm level 7 in executive coaching and mentoring. And then I've been doing sort of 2 jobs, if you like, in the voluntary sector, I do voluntary work. I've been a single mom for 16 years with 2. Everything's in 2, with 2 children, really, and when I sort of certainly when I qualified as an executive coach and mentor, I thought, this. This is what I feel like. I've been doing this for about 20 years, anyway, but I think the qualification has given me that kind of sort of confidence. I suppose if you like that. Actually, this is what I want to do professionally, and I really enjoy it.

And it gives me sort of great satisfaction in seeing the change in people, really, and I thought, well, I'll sort of start my own consultancy, or whatever start my own business, which is not something I've ever done ever in my life. And I've sort of procrastinated. And I, if I'm honest, which I have to be here, I've been a bit scared, you know, which is often how our clients feel. And I sort of, I'm thinking I'm talking the talk to other people. But actually, I'm hiding behind it, and there's all sorts of insecurities, if you like, or imposter syndrome going on, which I'll probably go on to talk about in my life. And I just put it off using excuses, really. But really, the truth is, I was scared, and then a wonderful friend of mine, who I shall name. He's an incredible musician, called Jack T. Harper.

And he said to me not so long ago, and he has an Adhd brain, and I think my brain doesn't quite work like the average. Let's just say. And he said, Pam, you're not going to do it until you've got the stress and the pressure to make you do it. You're not going to set up your business until while you've got the comfort of a salary being paid into your account. At the end of the month. And I thought, he's off his rocker, this man! How on earth can I give up my job? I literally live on my own.

And now, my children, my amazing children, have gone off to university. How on earth can I give up my job? Because, obviously, who's going to pay my nobody's going to come and pay my bills for me. I thought he was mad and I just couldn't get this out of my head, and I just kept thinking about it and thinking about it, and I and I just thought you know what he's absolutely right. Within 8 days I'd handed him my resignation, Marie, and that was it. And the most important thing is, it felt absolutely right, so literally going into it with no guaranteed income at all whatsoever next month.

But I'm not panicking. I'm not scared, and I'm not worried about it. And I just thinking what's the worst that could possibly happen. The worst that can happen is, it doesn't work for me, and I go and get a job, and I've got a good enough reputation in the field that I work in that. That isn't. I'm very fortunate. That isn't a problem so scary, not scary kind of thing. The main thing. I've learned a lot in years over my life is your gut. What your gut's telling you, what your body's telling you, my gut and my body is telling me this is right, and it just seems to make sense that I've got so much to give. And I've got to go further with this to change more lives. And that's what drives me. Really, I think also, again, I have to be honest. I think I thought businesspeople. I don't know what I thought businesspeople were, but I sort of linked it with money, and, you know, sort of monetary success, and although I would say I'm very successful, money is something I've always had a bit of an issue with that. And I thought you had to be a certain type of person to run a business. Clearly you don't. Clearly you don't. Now, I've been going to sort of business networks and met some amazing, amazing people. Yeah, it's there for everybody, really. And I would go from being sort of slightly nervous and scared myself to absolutely encouraging anybody, you know. Have confidence in yourself and give it a go. We're not going to be on our deathbeds. Looking back and regretting this, you know, take the opportunities that are in front of you. Really. So yeah, it feels good, feels good.

Marie Quigley: I love that, and there's so many things we could delve into about that I recognize that in your body it feels right, but your head might be saying some other things sometimes. So, it's about coming back to the body. From what I'm hearing, it's also recognizing you had perhaps those beliefs about what a business owner looks like sounds like, and feels like, and that exchange of money which a lot of people who come into the profession of helping others think money is a dirty word.

Pam Daniel: Yes. Yeah.

Marie Quigley: And you know, particularly if you're working in government or in healthcare, you aren't really trained in the way of thinking that it's actually okay to receive money for a service, you for me. It's always been a thought of. It's an exchange of energy. I'm giving something and receiving something, and that money is beneficial to both of us. You know it's a win when somebody exchanges that money, and often I'm not always, but often, because I do pro bono work myself. So, I know this isn't true always. But when people have some skin in the game. When they've committed that that money helps them move forward in a way that if they were getting it, for if it was a complimentary gift, they may not take it as seriously as possible as other people would. I know that's not the case all the time, but.

Pam Daniel: I was saying.

Marie Quigley: Times Happens.

Pam Daniel: Yeah, it's about the value you put on yourself. And I think this is a lot to do with what I do in my work really. And again, I'm sort of in. I'm very good at doing that for other people, and then not necessarily accepting that for myself. It's taken me a while to get my head around that. Really, but absolutely, I can now see the value that I bring, and it just happens to be possibly something that somebody would pay me for. But that's certainly as you'll see. That's not the driver at all, really. So, I've almost. You know, again, being really honest here. I've almost worn not having much money as almost like a badge of honour.

Marie Quigley: Okay.

Pam Daniel: Know I'm sort of. I can sort of relate to you in the communities that I've worked in, because, you know, my car is literally 19 years old. I started my life from Scratch 16 years ago with 2 very young children. Everything I possess is charity shops and eBay, and I've sort of, you know, gone around wearing that as a badge of honour, really. And I can't even imagine buying a car that's 5 or 10 years old, really. But why not? You know there's nothing wrong with that kind of thing, and what I have, you know my experience, and what I have, and my professionalism has a value, and it's taken me taking about a year to get my head around that, and to actually physically say the words, the words to come out of my mouth.

You know. How much do you charge? Oh, my gosh! It was like a lump in my throat. The word! I couldn't even say the words. I was avoiding it because I was so embarrassed to ask for money, you know. But I've got. I think I'm there. Got my head slowly, really, yeah, so, yeah.

Marie Quigley: And you mentioned, you know you've been alone a single parent for 16 years, Pam, and I'm guessing those beliefs about money originated when you were perhaps a little girl, or through your life.

Pam Daniel: Yes.

Marie Quigley: They can stick with us and kind of control us a little bit, and, as you say, you wear it as a badge of honour that you've got this 19-year-old car versus giving yourself the gift of maybe being able to. I'm not saying that a car's important. No, not important to me.

Pam Daniel: Clearly, don't.

Marie Quigley: But whatever is important to you, so how? What would you say to our listeners about your transition from those beliefs of? And I'm making this up, Pam. They're not your words, but not enough to what you believe about yourself now. So what did you believe about yourself?

Pam Daniel: Oh, I mean, how deep do you want me to get Marie here? Really? I think being a woman of colour. You know my parents were immigrants from Pakistan. I don't know. Do you want me to go this deep? How deep would you like.

Marie Quigley: Where? Where would you like to go?

Pam Daniel: Yeah, I think I'm quite happy to talk about that, really. And I think it's quite important, because I think one of the main things, I want to get across here is what holds people back, and the difference between what holds people back that look like you, Marie, compared to somebody that looks like me, and I think that's probably a bit of my niche. Really, that is very much my lived experience. But when you when your parents are immigrants coming to this country. My parents were literally illiterate. They were illiterate immigrants that came to Sheffield for a better life, and they were brought over. And I was born in Sheffield. But I always had this kind of believe it or not. English was not my 1st language. Nobody believes that, but it isn't, and the type of upbringing I had, which was very, let's say, very traditional to almost kind of oppressive leaves its mark on you, and you have my parents, and I'm not blaming them at all. It's the culture that they were in. They have beliefs for what a daughter like me, what I am to become, and that was predominantly somebody's wife and to have children. That was it. The education wasn't important, really, and that sort of stays within you, and you sort of think, well, you're just that little girl that was born in Sheffield with immigrant parents. Don't get above your station sadly, but that is like a voice that you've got inside you. And then the more you sort of somebody like me to be in professional circles, which certainly, since I've qualified as a coach and mentor, I've moved into different circles. Previously I worked in the voluntary sector in communities, whereas now I feel like I've professionally stepped up, if you like, and you step into sort of networking groups, and nobody looks like you, and nobody is of your class, you know they've all had whatever types of lives, and you feel very inferior to others. And you're thinking, you know not just an imposter. Think what the hell am I doing here? Really, you know, don't make a fool of yourself. Which is sad, you know, to feel that way, really, and it's only more and more when you get to meet people individually, you know, on a 1-to-one. And I would say that to anybody, really, you know, employers, or whatever. Go and meet people outside of the workplace, go to their home and have dinner with them, invite them to your home, go and have a coffee when you then meet people individually, and you start sharing your stories, you then realize so much more you have in common than what you think really, and it breaks down those barriers and makes somebody like myself feel that they are part of that network. They are part of that thing, and that's really important. So, I'd say that somebody that looks like me and has sort of imposter syndrome with bells and whistles on it because of lots and lots of cultural stuff that's gone on in their lives.

And everybody's story is very, very different. But I think it's quite helpful for us to be mindful of that. Actually. And we're all very, very busy. And we're doing our stuff. Really. I think there'll be many, many people listening to this. I don't think there'll be anybody that would be a potential client of mine necessarily listening to this. But I feel there will be people that work with people that look like me, or any other sort of types of diversity, you know, that's really important to me as well. But they think, oh, we're trying to be more diverse. We're trying to be anti-racist. What more could we do? There's so much more that somebody could do, almost, just you know, learning yourself, having conversations, having inclusive spaces where people can speak to each other and support giving that extra support to your staff, to your neighbours, to whoever really could make a massive difference.

What I'm trying to achieve, Marie, is what I would love to do is be what I needed. So, 2030 years ago, I clearly had potential. You know, it was there. It was inside me. I didn't obviously see it then. But what I needed probably was a brilliant coach and mentor. I needed somebody in my life. I was very much on my own and I didn't have that. I got there eventually, slowly, slowly, slowly, at the age I am now, but wouldn't, and I have this passion to think. Wouldn't it be lovely if I could do that for somebody else 2030 years earlier? That would bring me an enormous amount of joy. Bd, so that that's what drives me.

Marie Quigley: Hmm! I can hear that, Pam, and thank you for sharing about a little bit about what it was like for you growing up and moving in those circled circles and your own beliefs  about that was what was like for you. Because I'm thinking about our amazing community in empower world which is hugely diverse. We Janine and I set empower world up in Qatar. And it's like a melting pot of many, many different nationalities. Men, women from all around the world, and I have no doubt that many people will resonate with what you're sharing. I mean I do in many ways, but obviously I am not a person of colour, and that comes with a privilege that it doesn't with others. So, I really acknowledge you for sharing that, and I can hear your passion about supporting people, to become more aware of that, and perhaps their biases, perhaps their judgments, their own beliefs about what others are alike, and I think when we other people, it removes us from the connection of that heart-to-heart humanity that we are. We are more alike than we are separate.

Pam Daniel: Absolutely. Yeah.

Marie Quigley: So, as you're moving forward, Pam, you've taken this leap. Your friend gave you some information it resonated in your body. You made that decision to take action. What! Where are you now? What? What's next?

Pam Daniel: Yeah. Well, where I'm now. I'm just about finishing off my day job, if you like, which is as an equality lead in the city of Sheffield which I've loved. I've been there for 4 years, working for an amazing organization, voluntary action. Sheffield. I'm finishing that. And then I chose the 1st of April. Randomly. Well, for obvious sort of tax kind of reasons. And then 1st of April. It is. We're recording this just before a couple of weeks before that. I'm going out on my own with at the moment 0 income guaranteed. Really, 0 income guaranteed. So, what I'm doing is what others have sort of suggested, and I think something that is my strength and the known as the ultimate networker in Sheffield. Certainly in the voluntary sector I know a lot of people, and I'm very fortunate that I have a good reputation, and I'm known for somebody with integrity, really, which all works in my favour.

I've been what's been described as ferociously independent in my life because I've had to be. And I think I've again. It's taken me probably about a year to get my head around this people like helping people. And I've been reluctant to ask for help from anybody, because I'm ferociously independent, and I do it all myself, and I have done it all myself and all of that. But actually, people do like to help people. So, I have, I'm a guest speaker as well, and I've given a few, you know. Given a few talks. Recently the last couple of weeks, really, and I've ended those by saying Help, really, you know, if this is what I'm doing, this is what I've been through in my life, and this is what I want to achieve it for for people, and you know. and any help that you can give me please do, because I think I'm I think I'll be really, really good at what I do. I have enormous amount of passion and belief in what I'm doing well. I wary of is the business skills really and you know, why not that that's not something that I've done. It's not something that I'm familiar with. But there's many, many other people who who have those skills really. So, if somebody wanted to help me or connect me with other people? I've stopped being shy and asking for that, really so that has is something that's changed. Really, that was a bit of a penny. Drop moment, really, for me, and thinking, Well, you know, all of these people? Why not? Just say? And also some of it's happened naturally, anyway, Marie, just because I've been telling people that I'm leaving. And what are you doing? Where are you going? You know. Well, this is what I'm trying to achieve, and I think the more I say it, the more I might convince myself that I'm doing it really.

And and what's been absolutely beautiful, which I wasn't expecting is people's response to when I've said I'm going to go and work for myself. And I've all I have got my tissues ready in case I cry. I've been absolutely overwhelmed by people's response, and they have had no hesitation in believing. Well, of course you know the kind of comments. Well, of course you're already a consultant. Of course, you're a consultant, my gosh! You know if I was going to employ any consultant, I'd employ you. Of course, you know you're the ultimate go to in Sheffield, Pam, and people have such respect for you, and you're going to smash it. Gosh! You're so driven. And all of this. And I'm thinking, okay. They believe I can do it. Maybe I can, and that that has really really helped. I have to say people's response. I haven't looked. Nobody's looked at me and thought, I'm mad, you know you're giving up a permanent job to go out on your own, and you live alone, and there's no nobody else is going to pay your bills for me. But no, it's been. The response has been wonderful. And that's really been been good for my confidence. Actually, really? Good. Yeah.

Marie Quigley: That sounds like you had the courage to name what you were doing, which is always a bit scary when we 1st go out on our own, and then by sharing it, you've seen the reflection of what people have seen in you which is in turn given you the confidence to keep doing this.

Pam Daniel: Yes, yes. And I think also, Marie, you sort of have to. You have to have your niche and your sort of zone down on what it is that your offer is because the market is probably saturated with coaches and mentors. Isn't it? All over the world? Kind of thing? And you think? Well, what my, what have I got to give? You know that's different here. And you, you know, when you really think about that, it's I have got my head around that. Actually, there aren't many people on that look like me in this field. There's not in the UK particularly, or certainly had my sort of lived experience and really, really driven to find and help support the future leaders. That's a massive passion of mine, really. And I've also worked in sort of anti-racism work in the city for quite a number of years now, and a lot of learning has been had for me, for me personally on that for me personally, my own personal journey, and my journey for my children, also for the city, and what I see and what I've observed, what people absolutely have fed back. For to me about moving sort of you know, anti-racism. Forward in Sheffield we had a Race Commission report. There were recommendations. And the perception is that's just been stagnant. Nothing's moved forward in that, really. And I think a lot of people are very, very nervous. A lot of people. Most people are great people and good people, and want to make changes and want to do something in this field. But people haven't got a clue where to start, and are nervous and anxious about. What can I say? What can I do?

And it's almost like somebody like me comes along and gives them permission to have that conversation. And it's not. My style is my style, my style is me. This is it? Take it or leave it. Really, I don't have a style. I'm just myself, and that's what I've always been forever in my career, really. And and I think it makes people comfortable and at ease, and you know I'm showing my vulnerability. I share some of my story because I'm happy to do that, really, and people warm to you, and you can then start having these lovely conversations. I've coached mentored leaders in the in the city to do with. So, to give them confidence, to talk about race equality within within their staff, what they can do, the changes that they can make to their organization to do with recruitment, to do with retention. Retention is a massive deal in the city, Marie. I speak, you know. People come and talk to me, and they work for other organizations. Big big organise, you know. NHS council, this kind of thing and they feel they're really, you know, younger people of color, particularly feel unsupported. They feel like they're on their own, and they feel like their manager doesn't get them. I hear that a lot, and they're really, really, sadly, often are contemplating leaving their jobs and doing something completely different. They don't feel supported at all. And I it frustrates me because I just think these people are absolutely incredible and would be huge assets for the future of Sheffield, and I try my best, and this is like not paid or anything. This is just me being me wherever I am, you know, in a coffee shop or a bus stop, or wherever, and try and do what I can do because I want them to stay. I want them to carry on doing what they're doing because they are incredible, and everybody will benefit from that. And for me as I get older. And I look, what do I sound like for me? It's about the next generation, you know. I always think I want it to be better for my children.

It wasn't great for me, but I want it to be better for my children, and I want these great people to stay in their jobs, to feel supported and feel valued, and make Sheffield or the world a better place. Really, how corny does that sound! But it is so true is what I believe, and I think, as employers, we can make a massive, massive difference can make a massive difference to somebody like professionally in their career. I might be going on and on, because I get a bit over passionate about this. But I think there's that massive crossover between what you do at work and how you live your life at home, and what's going on at home, and how you, parent and your relationships and your body images and a man. All of these things are linked together. Really, all of these things stop you moving forward in various aspects of your life, really. And I think I've had. Personally, I've had experience of a fantastic employer which is Voluntary Action Sheffield, where I am currently now, and not so good employers, really, and what Voluntary Action Sheffield has done for me as an example of a great, great organization led by a phenomenal woman, Helen Sims. I shall name her. She'll hate me for it. She'd be embarrassed, but Helen gets it.

So, Helen has created a culture, and has for me personally really, really been a massive influence, and to do, going back to the colour of my skin. I've never, you know, as a child, because of racism in South Yorkshire, you know. Let's name it. I had to adapt my life to sort of fit in really. And I didn't even know it was racism until many, many years later. Really, because you just you just do it. That's the norm you're trying to pretend to be white, which seems ridiculous looking at my face. But that's what you had to do to fit in in South Yorkshire, you know, in the eighties. And then eventually, you know, sort of 4 or 5 years ago I came to work at Voluntary Action Sheffield, and they encourage you to bring your whole self to work. So, you're not hiding.

I might cry at any moment. You're not hiding who you actually are. You're actually bringing out yourself, your true self. And I give this example that I've not because of my own personal journey. I had not worn Asian clothes for over 35 years, because that's not who I was, and I didn't feel comfortable. And all of this really. And I wore an Asian outfit to a wedding, and then I went to the award ceremony. That Voluntary Action Sheffield had where I was nominated for a lifetime, achievement award, and I wore this outfit, and my daughter was with me as well, and I felt a hundred percent comfortable and that I have to give credit to part credit to my employer. Who has supported me and encouraged me to be who I want to be, and and celebrated my culture, the colour of my skin, and all of that. Really so. The difference Marie, an employer can make to an individual is immense. My own daughter had never worn anything like that in her life, and she's at Durham University, and she bought, like me, off eBay and a beautiful outfit, and she wore that to the summer ball honestly, and I'm not going to cry.

Marie Quigley: But I am.  My tears are coming up.

Pam Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And I think me being except sorry the dog's just having a bit Hissy bit me being supported and not being alone, because I've been on my own for a long time, but my employer has created this support around me that has given me the confidence to be who I want to be as a woman, and I've then  pass that on to my children, which is immense, absolutely immense. The power of an employer is incredible, really. And yeah, I'm a different person, Marie. I really am from who I was a couple of years ago. And how incredible! You know my children are dual heritage. They've never really embraced that Asian side of them, and now they can use that as in with pride, very, very different to how I was as a child, really, because it was something to be shameful and embarrassed about. So I hope we're not going too far off topic here. But.

Marie Quigley: Well, we are going where we're going.  I'm so grateful for your courage and vulnerability in sharing that, and also how I feel very choked at your story, but also the fact that your employer, Helen.

Pam Daniel: Helen Sims.

Marie Quigley: Helen Sims. Let's say her name a few times, so that we hear that because it can just take one person.

Pam Daniel: Yes.

Marie Quigley: Who trusts and believes in us, who allow us to see ourselves and really embrace all of who we are fully, not apologize for it, but really own it, and it sounds like oh, sounds like she did that for you as a mentor and a supporter.

Pam Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Woman.

Marie Quigley: Yes, it sounds like it, and from what you've told me, this is what you want to do for others.

Pam Daniel: Absolutely 100%. Yeah. So be that supporting other leaders or CEOs, if you like, about how they can, how they can make their employees feel, and I am obviously my own experience as somebody of colour. In society, you know, help and support people. And that's, you know. So all of this, let alone if you're brown and trans, and you know all the intersectionality. Or you know, that comes into it. Really. So it's much more than although I've been predominantly talking about race, because that's my lived experience. There's much, much more to it. So if I could help employers, you know, leaders to sort of get to see this, have a bit more confidence, build confidence in themselves, to have this conversation, and to be able to take those first steps, truly make their organization more inclusive, more anti-racist. And what have you that'd be a marvellous thing, or if somebody wants to pay me, dare I say I'm going to say the money bring money into it. If a leader can see that I could. Really, they've got a fabulous employee. Somebody of colour, let's say a younger person, and who has all the ability, but just doesn't have that self-belief. I'd love to come in there, and if they want to pay me, and I can then coach and mentor them. I would love that. I've done that with huge success honestly, and it has just filled my heart with absolute joy. There's a lovely, lovely young lady who? Well, there's several examples, but I'm using this one. When she was in a voluntary sector role, a sort of 1st kind of job sort of fairly low income, really. And I remember the first day I met her in my day job, and I was just beside myself with excitement, because I could just see the potential in this woman, and she just could not see it, could not see it. And we sort of we were work colleagues, and we'd go for coffee, and then I was doing my ILM level 7, and I asked if she would be my guinea pig and I was offering her this for free coaching and mentoring for free. And she did, and we had 10 sessions, and I saw a job in it was a lead, a diversity lead for South Yorkshire, ICB. Which is quite a big organization that deals with all the money in South Yorkshire, really, and I sort of put it to her, and she sort of I think she laughed. You know she thought I was again off my rocker, really. And I thought, no, you can do. I knew absolutely knew she could do this, but she just she just didn't see that in herself. I ended up sitting with her. We sat for 2 hours before her interview. I drove her to her interview. Actually, and I said, Ring me afterwards, and honestly I cried and cried and cried when she was offered the job. I cried far more than she cried.

You know the fact that she I knew she'd just run away with it, you know she'd run away with it and be brilliant, and she absolutely is absolutely. You know. She's she's incredible, and she's doing incredibly well. But the important thing, Marie, there for me is, you know what's in it for me in all of that it's not even just supporting her and getting to see her do the best that she could be the best that she can be, because she is the right person for that job. Thousands of lives in South Yorkshire will change. Will you know such difference will be made because she is doing that job and not somebody else who perhaps wouldn't be as fantastic as her and she had lots of lived experience as well, and I sometimes feel that lived. Experience isn't valued. We have these archaic recruitment systems often, don't we? In the NHS. And councils and whatever. And there's you know you've got to say the buzzword. You've got to have this qualification. Well, you know, if I told you I didn't even go to university, Marie. You know that my life journey was a very, very, very different path. I ran away from home at the age of 18 I had I was out on survival mode, you know, so that hasn't helped me with this imposter syndrome. And what have you really? So yeah.

I think sometimes the leadership roles are lacking diversity. You can have these like sorry dogs barking. You can have different different tiers. But then there's like a there's a horse going by. He's barking at the horse, and there's these different tiers, and people get to a certain level, and then they just don't see themselves at that level, because all that level is, you know, white or men in gray suits, or whatever it is, kind of thing they don't see themselves, and they need that extra support. And that's what I did for this young lady, really, and I'd love to do more of that, you know. Hopefully. Somebody will pay me to do that.

Marie Quigley: Yeah.

Pam Daniel: Yeah.

Marie Quigley: Well, thank you for sharing that. I think that says a lot about who you are in your role as mentor to that young girl as well. And also your passion and your desire for her to succeed.

Pam Daniel: Oh!

Marie Quigley: And you know that acknowledgement and championing of other people really can lift them up and support them, to start believing in themselves when they may not have had the opportunity to do that.

Pam Daniel: Yes, yes, that's a really important point. It's you know, it's about taking people with you. And that's always been really, important to me. It's not about me clearly, it's about, you know, taking these other people and bringing lifting them up. And look, it's taken me 20 years to get here. But you can absolutely be here. That's really yeah. That drives me quite a bit, actually, of getting them to see what I can now see. But 20 years earlier.

Marie Quigley: Yeah.

Pam Daniel: Oh!

Marie Quigley: Well, thank you for sharing Pam. We're coming to the end of our time together. That's blue. We've said we could go on deep dives in many different areas as our listeners are listening and maybe feeling the emotions that we've felt today or resonating with your journey. And I know it's so much more than you shared or thinking about doing something similar to you, taking that leap and moving to their own kind of work, and making a difference in their own unique way in the world. What would you like to leave our listeners with as we close off.

Pam Daniel: Thank you, Marie. have good people around you. I think I've not got here on my own. I've had some really good friends through coaches and things like that. Really, as a good employer it feels, you know. I just think gosh! If I can do it, who anybody can do it really, I mean, look at me. I'm nobody special at all, really, and I'm almost like embarrassed to say it. You know the words come out. If I keep saying it. I might convince myself. You know, Pam Daniel consulting I mean bonkers, really, but it feels right, you know my gut is telling me it is right. And I used to think there was this massive step between what you're doing now and starting your own business. It's not actually you just got a number from the tax office. Really, that's all it was. You know it isn't this great I still haven't to this day I haven't got a website yet. I mean, you know, it's a work in progress kind of thing, but it doesn't mean I can't do what I can do. You know, I think sometimes.

Almost, if you're a perfectionist, you wait for this perfect time, don't you? And that'll never come, really. So yeah, go for it. Take the leap honestly. What's the worst that can happen? You go and get a job again, really, and one of the best pieces of advice I was given. Marie was many, many years ago, and it was one of the worst days of my life, and I was at the lowest I've ever been in my life. It was about 16 years ago and I remember somebody saying to me, You've no idea where your life will be in 12 months time. And that is so so true. If you think where your life was 12 months ago compared to where it is, and you can't even believe where your life will be, I can't. I can't wait to see what. I don't want to wish my life away, but I can't wait to see where I will be in 12 months time, because I truly believe that this business it feels like a dirty word saying it, and it will succeed. Of course, you know, and people will. Hopefully, I've passed on. My passion, and other people will pick up on that passion really, and see that I am a genuine person, and they want, you know, want to make the world a better place, really, and you know what? What can Pam come and come along and help us with? Really? So I do, Guest, speaking as well. I've got a hell of a life story. So being part of women's books being basically written, it's going to be potentially turned into a play my life story, and you know what I got to gain from that again. It's just inspiring others, you know. That's all I want, really, if what I've been through can inspire others to be better themselves. Then that makes my makes me a very, very happy person.

Marie Quigley: Wow! Thank you, Pam. You have certainly inspired this morning. So how can people find you? Pam?

Pam Daniel: Yes, very good point. I'm on Linkedin. The website's not ready yet, but I'm on email as well pamdaniel.com. They're the 2 main ways to get hold of me. Really, yeah.

Marie Quigley: Lovely. So thank you for giving us the time. Thank you for giving us the inspiration and sharing a little bit about your heart, very grateful to you, Pam.

Pam Daniel: Thank you, Marie, appreciate, appreciate it. Thank you.

Marie Quigley: Listeners. Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed or are inspired and think that maybe you or others may benefit from hearing this conversation, we'd love you to share this. Podcast. If one thing has resonated with you, let us know about it. If you want to reach out to Pam absolutely, do that. If you want to think about moving into the world of coaching contact our team because we've got some wonderful new programs coming up for you. So like share, spread the word. And one word that resonates deeply with me after this conversation with Pam is, ask for help if you need help ask for it. We are more kind in the world than we are not kind. So if you see somebody that can help you reach out and ask. Wishing everyone a wonderful day, keep listening and keep spreading the word.