Co-founders of Empower World
Jeanine: Hello and welcome, listeners, welcome to the Empower World Coaching and Leadership podcast. My name is Jeanine Bailey, and today I'm without the amazing Marie, who is normally with me, and today instead, I'm with the amazing Lily Seto So welcome, Lily. Thank you for joining me.
Lily: Thank you, Jeanine. I'm blushing as you say that. So, thank you for inviting me. I'm calling in from Victoria, B.C. in Canada, which is the traditional territory of the Lekwungen and the Esquimalt speaking people. I'm honored to be on this land that's been care-taken for so long by the indigenous people in.
Jeanine: Beautiful Lily and I'm calling from the Wathawurrung land, Wathawurrung people part of the Coulomb nation. And I pay my respects to the elders past and present. And I pay my respects to your elders past and present and everyone in between. So lovely, wonderful to be here. So, it's a very precious land that we're both on. So. And I'm really pleased to bring Lily on our podcast today, because I bet Lily, several, several quite a few years ago now through my coaching supervision program that I attended with Damien. I mean, go back several years ago and Lily was part of that training. And since then, we've continued to connect Lily in many different ways and circumstances. And we both share a love of working with the indigenous people, supporting them through coaching and supervision and training. So, there's many connections. And I'm really, again, pleased to bring Lily on our podcast today, because in twenty twenty, she was also awarded the EMCC Local Supervision Award winner and part of perhaps a small few winners for their contribution and their work in supervision. So, congratulations, Lily. I know that award was not so long ago, maybe a few months ago now. So, again, congratulations on all that you do. And so, I'd like to hand over to you Lily to share your background and experience to our listeners before we dive into our topic today.
Lily: Great. So, I've been a leadership coach, executive coach for probably 17, 18 years. I've lost track and do quite a bit of team coaching, mentor coaching and coaching supervision. And my practice is global. So, I have clients all around the world, which is quite exciting for me because I can imagine them sitting in front of their beach having a conversation with me and I'm tucked away in my nice, warm house. So yeah, I think I'm very privileged to work in the in the field that I do and meet so many wonderful people like yourself.
Jeanine: Thank you Lily. Now I'm blushing.
Lily: Let's blush together.
Jeanine: Exactly. And there's a lot of work that you've been doing, certainly in the supervision space with Damian through his supervision program. And you both offering the group supervision training as well. So, again, there's a lot of work that you do beyond what you've shared. So today, what we want to do is to connect with you, Lily to do a dive into supervision, what supervision is because with the new ICF global conferences or the idea of coaching conferences, there is the mindset, competency coaching mindset, competency number two. And there's a strong inference about the reflective practice that we as coaches should be involved in. And supervision is one of those wonderful ways that we can dive into this reflective practice for ourselves to support ourselves as coaches. So, it really is. And it's something that Marie and I are very passionate about, this reflective practice and supervision, supporting ourselves so that we can continue to develop our skills and who we're being as a coach. So, Lily from your perspective, what is supervision for you? What's that mean for you?
Lily: Yeah, so let's start with the name supervision, because that's really offsetting for a lot of people really implies a hierarchical scenario where somebody is supervising somebody else and that's really not the case. It's really about sitting with someone that's been trained to think through what's going on in your practice and how you're showing up and where you getting caught, where our blind spots are sometimes ethical dilemmas that we face in our coaching. And just I like to think of it as my way of staying squeaky clean as I can as a coach. And the difference between coaching, mentor, coaching and supervision, there's an intersect, I see it as a Venn diagram. So, there are some overlaps, but there's some very distinct differences. So, for example, for coaching, we are future focused or looking for goals and we're looking to meet the goals. So that's quite action oriented. Generally speaking, mentor coaching ICF defines it as working on our core competencies. So how are we doing the coaching? What are the skill sets needed? And supervision is more about who am I being in that space? So, who I am is how I'm going to coach? And so, what's my background that's going to cause me to maybe get triggered by clients or maybe fall in love with my clients, metaphorically speaking, because I love a lot of my clients. It's like, OK, what's that all about? Can I remain squeaky clean if I love them so much? So, these are sort of things that we examine. And I remember when I discovered supervision, it was about I want to say 10 years ago I was an internal coaching strategist for a large organization, and we had trained up 16 full time coaches and we were doing the mentor coaching. And what I was noticing was people were bringing things into the space that weren't really clearly talking about core competency. It was what were they getting triggered by? Where were they? They were getting stuck in certain places. And so, I went looking to see what the heck is out there. And I discovered supervision. And at that time, most of the all the training was actually in Europe. And so, I went, OK, I guess that's not going to work because I can't really afford to travel to Europe three times to get this training. And then, lo and behold, like within three months, it showed up in North America. So that's where I met Damien. We were on the same class, in the same class together. We didn't become friends then, but after that we became friends and colleagues. And then since then, I've fallen in love with supervision because I see the power and I see how we can create some space to think through what's going on. We don't have time in coaching to slow down and breathe and think about things in a very structured way and in a very emergent way. So that's what supervision is for me is. And sometimes as a coach, we can be in a lonely place because we're there as a practitioner doing our work. Who do we talk to about is that the right way to do it? Is this normal? Is it normal for me to get triggered by a certain type of person? Is it normal for me to… so normalizing our experiences really good as well. Let me stop there because I can go on forever.
Jeanine: Thank you for sharing Lily. And yes, it's really important, I truly believe not only to be supervised, but also to appreciate the differences between coaching, mentoring and supervision, because there are distinctions. And I love how you also got a clear distinction about what supervision means, because people can tend to think it's like an expert. That is coming into potentially listen to what you're doing as a coach and to give their thoughts, but actually it's not that way at all. It is that that partnership that happens between in many ways, it's like coaching in that it's a partnership. And at the same time, it's different because it is a much more reflective conversation I have found, and it is about it, is focused about who we're being as a coach. And that could potentially be in relation to the clients that we're working with, or it could be about who we're being as a coach generally. Maybe there's a pattern that we're noticing in our coaching practice that keeps showing up. So potentially that is something that is worth exploring and it could be focusing on challenges, but also opportunities, again, to strengthen who we're being as a coach. So, I really appreciate you sharing those things Lily. And I believe when we're working with someone that's really an experienced supervisor and of course, doesn't need to be an experience. But if we're working with a skillful supervisor, gosh, the learnings are incredibly powerful. So incredibly powerful having worked with a number of supervisors who have supported me to create some AHA's about what you shared Lily, about who what I heard, I can't remember exactly what your words were, but who are being as a coach. But potentially we've bought in to our coaching conversation, into our coaching conversations. So that was really helpful to bring that to light. So, Lily I'm wondering if anything has just come up for you just now as I shared that.
Lily: Yeah, I guess one distinction I missed was we're not looking for outcomes in supervision, it's really, truly a reflection space and we do with it what we want. And it really shifts us in a very deep level in how we're showing up, especially when you're working with a fully trained, skillful supervisor that has some psychodynamic training behind them. You know, understands when, like, I'm a big rescuer, I know that. So, I need to keep watching and taking it to supervision and all I keep tripping myself on. I'm going beyond supporting into the rescue mode. So that's where one of my existence I'm getting better at that. And things like energy management, noticing the energy and noticing emotions and where the emotions and energy are being held in our bodies and what that means to us as coaches. So, lots of sematic work and a lot of emergent space. So, I never know what's going to show up in a supervision space, whether I'm being the supervisor, being supervised. It's really. Surprising where we go, so it's quite exciting if you can really let go of being linear about something or being I don't know what the word is holding on to outcome and, you know, really just allowing something to emerge, it can be a very magical space.
Jeanine: Yes, absolutely, and I think that's a really important point when you talk about linear, if we can let go of the Linear and allow whatever is needed to come in and what I found through my own training with Damien is really listening to what's beyond what's being said, what's being shared, the story. And of course, we learn that in coaching as well. But it just took that to an extra. So many extra levels and really support our coaching practice as well. So maybe you could share what that means to let go of the linear and bring in what's emerging, what might that look like, sound like, feel like? From your perspective.
Lily: Well, it's if I'm centered and if I'm attuned to what's present right now in the moment and I examine what's going on right now, that is likely something that's happening in other places in my life. So, if I can attune to that, I can learn something from it. And so, I like to think of supervision as a messy and emergent space. So not everyone is comfortable in that kind of space. And sometimes I'm not because there's something that needs to be unlocked. And I'm resisting it. And I'm noticing that in my body. Oh, I have a knot in my neck. Oh, what's that? Oh, I'm resisting. You know, whatever it is I'm resisting letting go of, I don't know, say, rescuing, for example, or tied to a certain way of coaching. You know, it works. Let's go there versus let's just sit here and just let that just show up in the space. And what's happening between me and my supervisor might also be happening between me and my clients, because that would be a parallel process, what we call. And that will unlock a bunch of learning as well.
Jeanine: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yes, it really, truly is a powerful place to be and as a supervisor, there’s so many different perspectives, as we say, that can be brought in. And we often refer to Peter Hawkins seven eye model. Seven different perspectives that can come into the supervision session, but potentially it's perhaps many more eyes than that.
Lily: I think he's expanded to 10 eyes now because he's broken out the seven eye model, so there's the concept of the environment around us, the bigger system, the idea of cultural context, what's going on or the organizational context. So, there's different levels of the system that we work in and live in.
Jeanine: It's really looking at all those different systems and working in the indigenous space as well. It's perhaps looking at the past generations and the future generations that can also be brought into the space.
Lily: Hmm. Absolutely. Asking, you know, what would your ancestors advise you or what kind of story would they tell you about what's happening right now?
Jeanine: Yeah. So, Lily, of course, as in coaching, it's important for us to when we're looking for a coach to find someone to work with that is going to support us with our aspirations, our goals, our dreams and supervision is equally important to find someone to work with. What would you advise our listeners if they're looking for supervision for themselves, which we trust the listeners who are coaches are what would you recommend or advise to listeners if they're seeking out a supervisor? What should they look for?
Lily: Well, the first thing you want is to ensure that the supervisor is fully trained. There are some supervisors that haven't been trained holding out their shingle, sort of like coaching was many, many years ago. Right. And some have done a three-day course and put the shingle out as a supervisor. So, the normal supervision training is at least eight months to a year. I think that's what you went through, very rigorous every week for eight months, nine months, whatever that was under intense. Yes. Lots of practice, lots of feedback, lots of trying new models and discovery, making sure that they have some psychodynamic training. So, you know, the truck drama triangle. Am I falling into the role of the rescuer, persecutor or victim unconsciously? Because we all do it. It's just can we become aware of that so we can choose how to shop differently? Energy works, somatic work. All of those are really important pieces, knowing the seven eye model and can fluidly move through it, checking out, you know, how does the client show up in our space? What kind of interventions are we using? What haven't we tried, where we stuck in it? What's the relationship between the coach and the client? What's going on there? Am I working too hard as a coach? That's a big one that often clients come to me and it's like they're trying this and they're trying that and they're trying so hard. Bless their soul. And what if we let go? What different outcomes would that be? And then what's going on for the coach? One thing where I learned a lot was, I guess it was about ten years ago I was working with a supervisor and I noticed a number of younger coaches coming to me. And I was getting really stuck until my supervisor said to me, do these clients remind you of anyone? And I went, oh, my goodness. They remind me of my children who were both the same age 35, 40. And it's like all up there to be careful not to transfer what's going on with my kids over to these clients because they are not my children. So, I you know, I have a different relationship with them. So that was a huge awareness piece for me. In terms of being aware of, you know, what kind of triggers might be happening for me. And then, of course, the parallel processes and what's happening to me and my body to what am I noticing in the moment? Like right now I'm noticing my heart's beating really fast. I notice how excited my voice is in this. This is all data for us to decide what does it mean to us as a coach. And then, of course, that seven time we call it the seventh day, which is the bigger system, huge place for people to learn to as coaches. What have we taken Eagles eye view of? What's going on? What would we notice? Who's doing all the work? Where are people located? From a consolation perspective, where are the conversations happening? Where are they not happening? You know, so, real great opportunities when you work with a trained supervisor who can bring in different models to use when appropriate.
Jeanine: Yeah, fantastic. Lily, as you said, the program that I attended with Damien, nine months, very comprehensive, bringing in all of these different aspects. And one of the models that we also learned about was the and one of the things we looked at was transactional analysis, which also I found was very powerful to utilize as well. So that parent adult child relationship, which was also very powerful.
Lily: Yeah, I was just recalling I spent a year working with a transactional analysis supervisor because I really want to understand that and what's going on. And when do I show up in a parental role? When does my rebellious child come out to play and learning to accept and love those parts of me and raising the awareness of when that might happen and then choosing to step out of that space or be playful for a while as a child and then step out?
Jeanine: Yeah, absolutely. And again, these wonderful things that we learn and supervision can we can bring them into our coaching as well in a powerful way. And the other element I also recall was the ethical part that as you shared earlier, when we have ethical dilemmas, we have someone that we can go to that has perhaps a lengthy experience in the work that we do and a great understanding of ethics. So, I think that's also important for when we're choosing a supervisor, so and I know that that's something strong in your tool kit as well, Lily, as you've been part of many webinars related to ethics. So, again, something important to look out for when we're seeking a supervisor, I trust.
Lily: Yes. And can I work with this person in a way that I can say anything to and not feel judged? That's super important for me and I don't tend to take a lot of courses anymore at my age, but I love the supervision space. It's just in time learning. So, I normally at any given time and working with three different supervisors for different things, team coaching my individual growth. And then I'm in a chain where we rotate on a regular basis and trial different supervisors.
Jeanine: Fantastic. So, Lily. Is there anything else that as we start to wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that you believe the listeners should be aware of in relation to supervision?
Lily: Well, there's two different models, there's individual and then there's groups, so the individual working one on one with the supervisor just in time, exactly what you want at any given time. The group I also love because it's a community, it's a small community. You build connections, you normalize the stuff that's going on. Like if somebody says, oh, you know, I'm really struggling with what would be an example. I'm struggling with giving advice and following the model and not giving advice. Almost everybody in the group is going to nod their head and go, Yeah, me too. Let's normalize that. Now, let's talk about what that means to our practice and how do we want to be as a branded coach. So lovely space, the group supervision. And sometimes it allows for more affordability because there's your rate might be a little less because it's in group versus individual. Depends on the supervisor and how they structure themselves. So also, I want to share that Damian and I co-lead the Americas Coaching Supervision Network and the Asian one, although I never make those calls because they're so late for me and anyone can attend our webinars the once a month. So, the Americas one is in the morning and the Pacific Time Zone, which is maybe not appropriate for your area down south, but the Asia's supervision, Asia Pacific one is in the evening our time, which is the morning your time. And that's a growing community. So, if you go on to the Americas Coaching Supervision Network website, you can check out what's coming up in different webinars are all free once a month. Different topics we have when next Monday in the Americas. One Sunny is going to be doing something on diversity and supervision. Yes, we have coaches coming. We have supervisors coming. We have leaders coming to these events. And there's a lot of resources on the website. There's a Directory of supervisors if you're looking for supervisor and there's a lot of recordings. And then we have an annual conference. We've done four conferences now. We just finished our fourth one that was virtual. And next year we're planning to go to Hawaii. So hopefully the world will be open.
Jeanine: Fantastic Lily. And what's the website that people can look at to get access to that information that you've just shared?
Lily: It's www.America'scoachingsupervisionnetwork.com and Google that you can find it.
Jeanine: Yeah. And I believe there's also pages on LinkedIn for both the America's. There might be one for the Asian. I mean, I personally attend the Asian supervision network whenever I can as it is a good time for me. And as a consequence of Damian also bringing in the supervision program at a time that's friendly for Australasia, which I've been involved in supporting in terms of supporting the Triads. I have made a connection with Jeff Duncan, who is a coach and now a supervisor. So, we're collaborating to build a presence in Australasia related to what you and Damien are also creating over in the Americas. So. that's coming out soon. So, we're looking forward to starting a regular networking one-hour event that is again under that umbrella. So do look up Damian and Lily's beautiful sight around coaching supervision. And I believe that supervision is becoming more and more known. More people are becoming credentialed supervisors, but also seeking out supervision because it really is supporting us as coaches, as professional coaches. There was one more question that I have for you, Lily. What kind of things would people go to a supervisor for? What would typically they might come to a supervisor for.
Lily: Well, I can tell you what I go for, I'm trying to keep my practice squeaky clean. So, for example, if I'm working in an organization, in one organization, I happen to be friends with the H.R. director. So, it was kind of a tricky navigation of if I go out for dinner with her, she might ask me about a client. And I need to say I can't talk about any of my clients. And there's a potential perception out there with people in the organization. So before I would work with them and I talked to this woman with my supervisors, like before I take on a client, I let them know that there is this relationship so they can choose not to work with me if they don't feel comfortable and to assure them that I don't talk about the cases when we're out together ethical. So that's an ethical dilemma. The other thing is. Oh, yeah, if I’m looking at my agenda, my calendar and I go, oh goody, I get to work with Jeanine today, it's like, what's that all about? Or Oh no, Jeanine's on my calendar today. What's that all about. So, what is it evoking in me? Can I be neutral when I come from those faces? Another thing is during this pandemic I noticed that I needed to be more centered and centered in a different way. So, I've been working with a supervisor who works a lot with somatic's and trauma in the body and grief. And, you know, my clients. My clients as a coach and my clients as a supervisor are coming with more of this in the space, too, and how do I hold that space for them to. Figure out what's going on for them. The world has changed. They're holding a lot of that in their bodies know having to look after children in home schooling at the same time working full time and business is tanking. And people, you know, there's no freedom of movement and there's death around us. And so, there's all these really hard, tough conversations going on and how I used to resource myself doesn't work anymore. You still like to go see my grandchildren two or three times a month and roll on the floor with them and play toys with them. And that's not available to me now. So, what do I do to ensure that I'm resourced to do the work that I need to do and want to do? So those are the kind of things that I would take to my supervisor.
Jeanine: Yeah, no, that's great. Some great examples of when we might choose to go to see a supervisor and really important reasons, again, because it's such a deep and powerful journey You know, we really do continue to take out of the layers around ourselves and really start to understand who we truly are. And it's an ongoing journey, isn't it, of those?
Lily: Yeah, I don't think we ever stop learning as coaches. And I think there's you know, I'm at this point where I'm. I think there's an ethical imperative, at least with coaching in the indigenous space. I think it's an ethical imperative. So, I hire quite a number of coaches to work with me in the indigenous space. And I require that they do attend supervision if they want to work with me, because there's so much that can come up in that space. And who do you talk to about all of this?
Jeanine: Yeah, exactly. There is so much, isn't there, in that space to. To explore and create greater awareness and to actually look at how can I with that awareness, how can I utilize that in a way that is powerful and good for me, good for others, good for the generations.
Lily: And really about the client, like how do we serve our clients best as coaches? So that's an additional piece in supervisions. We're bringing a client into the room. How do we see the best we can?
Jeanine: Yeah, the most important point potentially.
Lily: Phyllis, let's end on that note.
Jeanine: So, Lily you know, my heart is full, inside myself, I'm feeling very energized, inspired, excited by what you've shared and really grateful that you've generously shared your time today. So, thank you. Thank you for bringing your wonderful wisdom, your knowledge, your experiences into this room, and again, I'm sure our listeners will agree. So, thank you, Lily.
Lily: Well, thanks for inviting me.
Jeanine: Absolute pleasure, So, listeners, we'd love to hear your feedback. We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can send in feedback via the Facebook pages directly through to our wonderful business manager support on. [email protected] and of course, please, to reach out to Lily and to ourselves if you haven't already. And we trust that you if you haven't been supervised yet, that you do go on a journey of looking at what supervision is and experiencing it. so, thank you.